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Choosing a tiny event in USA with few international entries, almost no homologated local cars and almost no rally culture over Rallye Deutschland, which has all of that... just for the sake of having another event outside Europe, who cares. World championship should also mean the best rallies of the world, not just rallies all around the world.
Couldn't agree with you more, and I definitely think we should have Rallye Deutschland back as soon as possible, if not 2023, then 2024.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
What I read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
On that subject: http://planetemarcus.com/une-manche-...ons-de-la-fia/
"Two events, one on asphalt (Germany) and the other on gravel (USA) which could overshadow Estonia, which has not yet signed an agreement like Belgium, which remains on a provisional substitute status."
"Few European entries" means few entries, because vast majority of overall entries on WRC events are European.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
"almost no European cars" (Toyota, Hyundai?) means almost no cars, because in USA there's very few Rally 2, Rally 3, Rally 4 cars.
"almost no European rally culture" means almost no rally culture. Whether one likes it or not, Europe makes up 90%+ of world rallying.
If one wants to go outside of Europe there's NZ, Australia, Japan, Argentina etc... they'll have much less entries than Deutschland, but they're better alternatives than Tennessee, and they deserve few spots in the calendar. No offence to the Tennessee fans.
Any round has to be world class, agreed. I can't say for Tennessee.Quote:
Originally Posted by focus206
Much of what you speak of though is a feedback loop from having a Euro-centric World championship. Vast majority of entries are European? No shit! Every Superbowl winning team has been American! Rally pyramid homologations are not needed in a WRC-free US, regs are causing a stand-off.
No rally culture in the US? Block and Pastrana were highlighted as the biggest rally stars on social media. Subaru are doing the netflix/prime thing many are calling for in WRC. (Subaru are doing the netflix/prime thing instead of WRC!!) Nobody rivals Dirtfish for global reach in the rally journalism space.
Why is the Rally2/3/4 entry list important? Genuinely. WRC should revolve around the highest class rally surely? Attract a global audience and more manufacturers, grow the sport, don't choke it. As much as I love seeing European privateers, they don't need to tie down world rallying if they don't want to rally the world.
WRC is a Euro-centric world championship, it has always naturally been like that. For many years the championship has visited NZ, Australia, Argentina, Kenya etc. and we've only had a handful of non-European regulars who were able to reach the top class. And continental championships like APRC, CODASUR always get very few entries.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Superbowl is an American championship event, isn't it? I don't see the correlation, I don't think any foreign team can even take part?
Block and Pastrana are highlighted as rally stars because they're (other than internet TV/personalities) American/anglophone. When it was up to them to show their value in WRC, they did pretty bad. Countries like Spain or Italy have much bigger rally culture and much faster rally drivers, but guess what, nobody will hail their local rally drivers as superstars. First because they're not stunt drivers / TV hosts / Youtubers, second because nobody cares about Spanish and Italian medias abroad as they have little reach.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
In a big country like USA, where they speak the international language and with their medias having huge reaches, all they can offer is 2 rather mediocre stunt/rally drivers and Dirtfish. You can find rally culture in Namibia as well, it doesn't mean it's enough for WRC.
I don't find a rally entered by just 10-11 Rally 1 entries, or little more, worthy of a world championship. And I don't see how going to Tennessee will attract manufacturers (who, Chevrolet?). Even if you'd go there for multiple seasons, it probably wouldn't change a thing. In the 80's there was the Olympus Rally: from those years, we didn't get any regular WRC American competitors nor American brand joining.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
To me a way to choke the championship would be adding many non-European events: costs go up, we lose manufacturers, we lose plenty of European Rally 2 regulars (who will be reduced to run just few events), for what? Maybe 1 or 2 non European drivers doing some events and probably no new manufacturer (I can only imagine Chinese manufacturers as 100% new entries).
We have different philosophies, that's fine. I'm 99% sure any US round won't even make candidacy point, but if it does we can pick up this topic then.
Ofcourse WRC should go to the States..
Can't be worse than Kenya's startlist or less spectators than in Australia..
Motorsport sells in US and local stars like Block and Pastrana can make it more interesting to fans. Add Oliver to the list, who has driven in Subaru team..
As been to the States many times and really loved it, I'm sure it will be great event!
Actually Mexico ( = American event) has had worse entry list than Safari has (Mexico has had less than 30 entries even with all NAT rally cars counted)Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
I´m OK with USA event but don't get your expectations too high.
if ogier is out of WEC. will he return to full time WRC again ?
Wouldn’t hold my breath for it, he might do an extra event this year but he said at the end of last year and the beginning of this one that he intends to spend more time with his family.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988senna
That's why he's ended his season - to spend more time with the family. I also suspect a third LMH Toyota isn't happening, and he's not quick enough for a seat in the two Toyota entries; so no point in carrying on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
Question now is, who will be their (Toyota’s) third driver for next year?
it's ogier so I guess we don't need to treat his word as serious as other body. He had nothing to do in next year .I just feel even the Toyota also wish him to come back as the Evens maybe will lose the seat.
I think ogier is the only man can beat kalle in consistent .
I don't think evens can carry on with Toyota for this year's performanceQuote:
Originally Posted by Eli
How long is his contract?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988senna
Also, his two previous seasons were very good.
I believe you are wrong.
I think he's signed for Toyota until the end of 2023.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
And who can replace him? He has had a bad season but no way Toyota lets him go.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988senna
WRC has four fulltime Tier1 drivers and Toyota has two of them. They would be in a serious disadvantage after doing that.
Even with a poor season so far Evans has shown plenty over the last few seasons to justify his position at Toyota. Even if Tanak or Neuville were to join (the only 2 better options in my opinion) there would be a strong argument to be made to keep Evans as fulltime 3rd driver.
sorry for my incorrect statement, what I mean is evens will become a part time driver if ogier full time back and tanak's return in next yearQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
The way it's going Toyota can field 2 cars next year, one being Taka, and still win everything.
actually I feel the part time job with Lappi is better for Evens at the moment,if ogier and tanak back to Toyota.there is really no full seat for himQuote:
Originally Posted by Corcaíoch
Why do you think that Toyota needs Tanak?
And didn't Ogier say he's done with full time career as a WRC driver? He'll be 39 by the end of the year, I doubt he'll want to go back full time after doing this last hurrah goodbye season.Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit12
And Rovanperä?Quote:
Originally Posted by 1988senna
:D
No, I think he hinted he could return. His son goes to school in the fall so now he has more time to spend with him. Also I think he already saw that WEC is not so easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
For a single season?Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
To replace evans. Ok, rovanpera is carrying the team on his own, but this may not always be the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by bandit12
Without kalle, we would not be talking of toyota dominance right now.
I made the calculations of the season so far, but without rovanpera:
Neuville 98
Katsuta 83
Evans 77
Tanak 75
Breen 69
Sordo 38
loeb 38
ogier 38
Greensmith 36
Solberg 13
Loubet 8
Fourmaux 5
Without Toyota and Hyundai, M-Sport would be leading the championship 1-2-3 :OQuote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Add Citroën in to the mix and it still wouldn't change that ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
And if they were riding bikes it would be cycling.Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
But that is not the point. The point is that all kalle's teammates are horribly underperforming. We see evans and katsuta having less than half the points of kalle, but the ogier/lappi combination is actually even worse with only 51 points.
They are lucky that hyundai is screwing it up even worse. Only kalle is keeping them afloat.
Well that's it isn't it? if Hyundai's car wouldn't keep breaking a part we might've actually got to see a championship fight on our hand, at least for the manufacturers if not for Thierry & Ott against Kalle, just think how many times have the car let them down when they were fighting at the front? Even in Monte, at least Thierry there could get a podium if not for all his troubles. Also, I honestly don't see how Hyundai are serious about getting that manufacturers title when for most of the year they have a 3rd driver in what you could say his rookie season, but all of that should be discussed in the Hyundai thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Ogier likely has motivation for more starts. He has not won with Rally1 yet, unlike Loeb which certainly really pisses him off. Only Monte was a performace he can be satisfied with.
Evans should improve reliability, Kinda looks like he felt this was his chance for title after Ogier and before Rovanpera improves and "stressed" too much.
But imo biggest pressure at Toyota is on Lappi. Before this season he was known to bring results on fast loose surface rallies while being unreliable both in terms of speed and crashes elsewhere...and then he crashed on both "elsewhere" rallies (Croatia, Sardinia). If Ogier wants more starts, it might become harder for Lappi to even get these opportunities and he risks getting stuck in "Sordo like" position.
Yes, finishing 40ish on the last two occasions doesn't do any favours for Lappi, hopefully he can get back on top in Estonia & Finland, mind you they already have a fast Finn, so if Lappi gets the opportunity in Ypres, he really, really needs to perform there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
That's the problem.
If Ogier wants more rallies how many rallies that are not fast gravel will there be for Lappi? Ypres would be extremely difficult to do well on with very little experience (one start in 2014 with crash from 3rd).
Greece is maybe most likely and again Lappi has little experience there.
Catalunya is a rally Ogier likes (and Lappi has bad record on) and he will want to do Toyota home rally.
Personally, I don’t think the market will move before Greece. There are the rumors about Hyundai, no no-brainer prospect in Rally2 and some disappointing drivers in Rally1 so far in the ones with no guaranteed future (Lappi, Fourmaux, Greensmith, Solberg) + what will do the old guys (Sordo, Loeb, Ogier).
And the big 5 is under contract.
So teams have interest to wait and see for the summer.
At the moment, I would say that for Toyota the best move is the following one:
- 1st car: Kalle for sure
- 2nd car: Evans. When you have the next big thing and the best car in the hands, I don’t see the point to take Tanak or Neuville with the risk of impacting relation with Kalle. And, whatever we can say, Evans is the best of the rest at the moment in terms of speed.
I don’t see Ogier coming back full-time but sounds like he could make a part-time job.
Lappi is a bit disappointing so far and it will be complicated for Latvala to resist to Japanese pressure if Katsuta does a rather good second half ... but he is a bit slow on tarmac.
So I would say Katsuta full-year between 3rd and 4th car (as Hyundai did with Paddon at the beginning of his career with 2nd/3rd car).
With
3rd car: shared between Ogier (5/6 rounds with 3 tarmac) and Katsuta (7/8 rounds)
4th car: shared between Katsuta (5/6 rounds) and a young driver with no Rally1 experience (Rossel, Huttunen, Lindholm, Ingram) for 6/8 rounds.
Sounds the best balance for me
Lappi has no experience of Greece, only Turkey & the only saving grace for Lappi is NZ (which we'll hopefully get to!!) & if Japan is yet again cancelled (which I hope it won't be), they'll get Monza again which I doubt Ogier would like to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
We also have another piece of the puzzle, if Tänak isn't signed for next year at Hyundai, where does that leave him? Going back to M-Sport? Assuming Toyota stays with their line-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny0405
I also think Toyota will stay the same. Ogier +Lappi sharing should actually work. The only problem is that it gets Lappi "stuck" at only the fast rallies (a bit like Breen in Hyundai).
You'd be crazy to change Lappi for Huttunen or Ingram. Probably still a bit early for Lindholm or Rossel and Toyota does not need a new developing driver yet. Mikkelsen might be better allrounder, but not for fast gravel only. So there isn't really anyone to pick unless some massive disaster happens for Evans or Lappi.
Toyota does not need Tanak at this point at all either. And I would guess Japan has some bad feelings towards him.
It's MSport or Hyundai.