Absolute Rally podcast ft. Hayden Paddon on his EV rally car and the future:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0TW...TeSVkCd1_xWUWg
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Absolute Rally podcast ft. Hayden Paddon on his EV rally car and the future:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/0TW...TeSVkCd1_xWUWg
Not sounding good !
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/delay...eadline-moves/
To be honest, the WRC should have gone hybrid a while ago; all seems 'too little too late'. The WRC is in danger of being left behind.
And the news today from Honda is going to leave many manufacturers in motorsport wondering their next move. How longer is ICE relevant for manufacturers? I'm not sure it is.
Go full electric already then.... And instead of 2 or 3 manus at the start in 2022 be ready to have the incredible amount of ZERO.
The hybrid issue with Hyundai and also the fact they are freezing their workers wages looks like there may a problem for them to stay in the WRC.
However they wont want to leave their biggest car sales rivals, Toyota, an open goal to win the Championship for years...
Both VW and Citroen said it out loud already 2 years ago. WRC should have gone hybrid already for 2020-2021. Could probably have been done with some very mild hybrid/electric turbo just attached to the 2017 cars. Perhaps it would be possible not to increase the cost too much then ( since most of the car was already paid for). Then this hybrid could have been refined for next 2 years while getting ready for electric.
Instead they now have to invest more money on making completely new hybrids which probably won't last long.
I'll keep repeating that it's a bit of a tradition for WRC to be behind the trend in automotive industry. (turbos, downsizing...)
Some people still think that allowing 4WD was biggest mistake ever ;)
or banning Group B....or introducing WRC instead of Group A...Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Hindsight is a wonderful thing... but for 2017 they focussed on more power and aero when they could've seen hybrid was already the way road cars were going.
The 17-spec WRC cars have been great for the fans but not for the long-term health of the sport at the top level.
Global warming was a thing already before 2017 but the IPCC report in 2018 made a big impact and probably changed the strategies of car manufacturers (and possibly also FIA / WRC Promoter)Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Again, you can only guess what would have happened had they kept the 2016 regulations or went to something completely different, but I know a couple of people in addition to myself who returned to follow the sport because the new cars were like the new Group B.Quote:
The 17-spec WRC cars have been great for the fans but not for the long-term health of the sport at the top level.
Of course, it also helped to increase the popularity of the series because the dominant team quit and the title fight(s) became more interesting. And to top that with All Live...yeah, difficult to say how much the car regulations made an effect.
The '17-spec cars looked great in photos and if you saw them close-up at service, but in action watching them stage-side, they were still a small noisy hatch similar to before.
I wouldnt say they were more spectacular, faster yes, but not that much more exciting. The power increase was kind of offset by the aero and diffs so they stuck to the road.
It's now looking like a last hurrah for traditional WRC cars but at what cost...
we are all entitled to our opinions...and my opinion is that the 17 spec cars look awesome and are a noticeable step up from the prior wrc cars.
i've never seen them in person, but i've seen all the prior models. All i get to see are the videos posted on here and social media (youtube, instagram, twitter, etc.) and i can say i look forward to seeing these 17 spec cars in actions. the videos i see look great. the rally drivers say there is a distinct difference between them and the prior models, positive reviews, and their opinions must also count for something. i acknowledge they must be more expensive to manufacture and run, but that has usually been the case in motorsport. i don't know what the future of wrc holds, but i'll enjoy these cars and wrc while it lasts
Eddie, they ARE definitely more spectacular, but I guess everyone has their own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Out of interest, have you watched them live in a forest stage, or just super specials?
Seriously?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Anyway, it’s fair to remember that the WRC has been changing with all stakeholders support: manus asked for more powerful and spectacular cars (in line with 2014 WRC fans survey) and the FIA released ’17 rules; the promoter decided for a less eurocentric calendar and foreign events were added, with manus blessing and for new crowds joy; Todt pushed hybrid cars idea, manus followed it and hybrids will appear sooner than expected (yep, the original time frame for ’17 rules was 3+3 years); fans and manus complained about the series coverage and the promoter developed (better late than never) All Live; manus are now asking for running costs reduction and the FIA is already announcing less and shorter rallys, besides tech developments limitation.
This said, if Hyundai decide to leave it won’t certainly be, just like it wasn’t in Citroen case, for the rules, the coverage or even the budget.
if it would be up to me, i would never loose these 17' generation cars :D
i have seen both in live, the previous generation and now these ones and i can say they are way more spectacular ( i really dont understand how EDDIE can say what he says). i dont know anyone who has said they suck or they dont like them. Yeah for sure most of my friends follow WRC because of Tänak and Järveoja but they have also praised a lot these cars, saying too they look awesome and are spectacular watch.
i remember when i saw the first tests vids of these new cars, especially on faster roads, i was fascinated by the cornering speed. (and i still am)
i just love this generation but i also understand we have to move forward.
Many governments are talking about even banning the sale of new hybrids from 2030. I suppose in the not too distant future rallying will have to go all electric or become the plaything of private teams.
I see the usual suspects 'misinterpreting' what I say.
I never said the I didnt like the '17-spec cars. They look great in pictures and are very fast. But on the stages are they a quantum leap like Group B was from Group 4 ?
It all depends what you class as exciting - sheer speed yes, but even the prior 2016 cars were damn fast. These new cars never look on the limit except in the hands of the very top boys, and even then just now and then.
How do you guys define 'more spectacular' ? When they flash past at 200 kph in the forest what extra do you see in a '17 car ? I just see a blur and noise which the '16 cars were doing pretty well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeeV06bmTfs
Eddie, have you ever seen one live in a forest stage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
2 out of 4 manus basically gone in 1 year, at that rate it would turn to 1 team series like the WEC did when Porsche left.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Anyway I think 2017 were a good idea when they came. But extending them without changes for 2020 and 2021 wasn't.
Some small hybridization should have been added already for 2020, possibly with offset in other areas to keep the cost from escalating too much. For example by limiting damper options/development.
Skoda (VW) were relatively vocal about not liking them staying the same and subsequently Skoda never joined. Citroen was also saying similar things when leaving, even thought it was partly an excuse.
i really think you maybe went to wrong places. i saw different monte, sardinia, germany. on the limit (or above) in most of the times. let's say 7 out of 10. then yes couple of boring moments every times, but because of the road.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Seen both generations of cars plenty of times on all surfaces... Both have their positives and negatives. The previous 1.6T generation was amazing when it came, thanks to the mechanical diffs, everyone remembering the last generation of 2L WRC cars knows how boring these were, especially on tarmac... The first 1.6T were very accessible to privateers, especially in the beginning. In some events there were 20 (or more) WRC cars, those times are gone. Having guys like Solberg(s), Ostberg, Kubica, Novikov, PG Andersson, Bouffier, Rantanen etc mixing up with the field was great, even if it were some one-shots. Current generation has proved too expensive for that... Also seeing cars completely sideways 30-40 meters before a corner was a far more common sight in that generation than with the current one. The current generation however is a completely different world, they are far faster, not only are the engines far more powerful, the cornering speed is just unbelievable. Seeing them in Poland, Finland, Sweden and faster sections in Wales was simply stunning.
I think that the next generation, combining the powerful engines, aero and putting the step back to mechanical diffs, will be very, very exciting to see! The fact that suspension travel will be limited will only make things more exciting to see... :)
Agree with all your post, apart the last sentence; current spec suspensions make the cars way more effective and even safer.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
Eddie you're chatting pish. If you've ever been in a real forest stage to watch these cars i find it impossible for any rally fan to claim they aren't a big step up and hugely spectacular. It's just weird to claim otherwise.
History being re-written on here - these cars have been FANTASTIC for the WRC. All events seem to be increasing in spectator numbers since the 17 regs were introduced, the championship battles have been some of most interesting ever - compared with what he had in the previous 15yrs. The TV viewers have increased, WRC+ has taken watching a rally to all new heights..., and there's a big demand for new countries trying to join an already full calendar.
Manufacturers will always come and go - no matter what regs you have. That's part and parcel of motorsport. Ofcourse Hybrid could've come earlier..., but if Hyundai leave it might also have something to do with one of the biggest global pandemics and the consequences of that..., rather than new/old car regulations.
VW unexpectedly pulled out because of diesel-gate, Citroen might have gone in a few years anyway (although pushed for hybrid), but they spat their dummy out after Ogier left them and constant struggles with poor car development.
Only way to get the WRC full of new manufacturers is to go electric. Until then the sport will probably always fluctuate between 2/3/4 manufacturers.
Eddie... I'm going to call that you have never seen a 2017 car in a proper gravel / forest stage, or if you have, then you really know sweet FA about the sport you talk a lot about.
As for the future, we really need some out of the box thinking now, because the 2022 regs don't seem to have knitted the teams together like they should have done and certainly haven't brought any new manufacturers in.
Is electric the way forward? Probably, but I have this worrying feeling that to save face, the FIA will still press on with hybrid and if it's a five year change cycle, then really, how many manufacturers are going to be pushing hybrids in 2027?
I hate feeling so negative about the future of this sport, but it's like we're sleep walking straight into a championship that won't serve any purpose to the teams it needs to attract.
Let’s stay calm, avoiding to get ‘electric hysteria’. All major motorsport series are using (and will continue to use) Hybrids and unless the FIA decide to ruin 50 years of world rally heritage, turning the WRC into a Mickey Mouse competition (with endless loops on 5km stages), there’s no way this sport can use full EV’s any time soon.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
If the existing agreement on the 2022 rules is broken (the current 3 teams were in favor of a high tech control hybrid system and the FIA launched a bid accordingly), there’s an easy way to solve the problem: the FIA creates a mild hybrid R5+ top category and makes a deal to compensate Compact Dynamics, the company that won the hybrid system bid.
There’s absolutely no need to reinvent the sport or turn it into a joke.
Look, I don't want it to go electric, but if it means survival, then fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
Regarding the FIA changing 50 years of heritage; It won't be them that decides, they will inevitably follow what the manufacturers want in terms of a marketing vessel. If that is electric, the FIA will have to go this way and just find a way around the potential issues.
It will be a while off yet though and I agree that a U-turn and re-route to R5+ seems potentially like a solution, but I just can't help think that the next 12 months are going to expose a lot of weaknesses in the structure of the sport at this level.
I was recently thinking about it, and actually they could. It could perhaps even be one of the easiest motorsports to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
If they were to provide quick charging zones before each stage, and possibly before every long liaison, they could go full electric.
They would have to adapt the timing and maybe hire some generators, but that would solve the short range problem.
I don't like it, i don't want it, but it should be possible.
Who’s saying that manus want Rally to go full electric? Apart VW (that turn green from night to day after the Dieselgate), no manu is stupid enough to push for a tech that’s not ready to serve rally main marketing purpose: proving that average looking cars can surpass the most extreme challenges on daily roads.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Besides, apart some populist politicians, who can assure that Hybrids will end on a near future? Did you know that many of those German manus that jumped into FE to save their faces are now reconsidering to get into the 2022/23 WEC-LM/IMSA Hybrid formula (LMDh)? And that Hyundai, through their American arm, is being pushed to also get into LMDh? https://racer.com/2020/09/18/imsa-re...l-regulations/
That's a big if and besides the autonomy issues there are also safety questions and, most of all, reliability founded doubts, considering Rally extreme challenges. Again, unless we turn this sport into a Mickey Mouse competition, full EV’s aren’t ready for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
I’m not saying the manufacturers are saying the want to go electric.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I said you claiming the FIA make the decision is inaccurate. They will ultimately serve the demands of the manufacturer.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/hyund...-wrc-from-2023
Hyundai possibly quitting rallying at the end of 2021
EDIT: end of 2021, not 2022
Tänak finishes his career at m-sport then?
In their Fiesta Rally2 then?Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
well if WRC would move to Rally2's, Hyundai would have a car...even the article says that Rally2 and Rally3 projects will continue.Quote:
Originally Posted by tommeke_B
It's a different thing who will pay the drivers' salaries or running th ecars.
Honestly I think the move to Rally2 as top category is the only long term option, despite the negative consequences it could have for national rallying. It's never been a question if this would end, only when, the coronavirus could speed up this process very rapidly... We'll be very, very lucky if we still have 3 manufacturers competing with their WRC cars next year. ;)
I said a while ago (on another forum I think) in a post Covid world there will be less manufacturers willing to spend money on motorsport programmes; as such, there will be a battle between series to attract/ keep them. The WRC has to be careful that when the music stops, they have a chair to sit on. These rumours are possibly a warning shot.
Seems to be a question of what's more important to have in the 2022 WRC - Hybrid or Hyundai ?
I cant see the WRC backing down and Toyota will be happy if Hyundai pull out leaving them in a dominant position. And M-Sport Ford seem ok with going hybrid asap.
Adamo sounds worried and rightly so.
There's no reason for Toyota to be happy if Hyundai leaves. A title is only as valuable as the competition fighting for it.
It is true. But in WEC/Le Mans they don't seem to mind to much :)
Got a feeling they won’t even be around for 2021.
I presume the mild hybrid rules for ‘Rally2’ cars are much cheaper and easier to implement than the full hybrid system proposed for ‘Rally 1’ cars?
How about lower world categories and regional championships continue with standard ‘Rally 2s’ and the top category can include the mild hybrid technology, perhaps slowly increasing the 10bhp boost and one or two other improvements (more aero?)
Sure, the current generation cars are great to watch but would we rather see 6 of those, or maybe 15-20 Rally2+?
Hopefully Hyundai make a decision soon and the FIA quickly react.