The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

I'd say that if the numbers place Ryan Giggs and Phil Neal as the two greatest players in English football history, it proves that the numbers can't be totally relied upon.

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Nobody has achieved more, and that is the only definition of greatness worth considering.

When being a jolly-decent-fellow-what-old-chap has any relevance other than in the minds of Nigel Roebucks love-childs, then any other reference of greatness will have significance.

Until it does, and anytime you wish to visit the F1 Paddock you will find immediately that any such a thought is utter bilge and codswallop, then any other feeble interpretation is born solely from envy and petty-minded isolationist idiocy perpetuated by the great unweashed brain-deads who claim to follow F1 but evidently do not understand even the most basic principle of the sport, which, for those hard-of-understanding, is winning is everything.

The notion that it is the taking part that counts is ridiculous and maintained by losers.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

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A fine post Ioan and one I agree with....while I always thought both Alonso and Hamilton were very talented I couldn't 'like' either of them....for me that chnaged also in the last few years.

When you see two guys driving the wheels off a poor car and getting results they really have no right to you cannot help but applaud that. I canno wait for 2010 season.

Luca is a funny one...sometimes appears humble and almost in awe of Ferrari and what it means to people but then turning around and saying something that makes me wonder of he even knows F1.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Nobody has achieved more, and that is the only definition of greatness worth considering.

When being a jolly-decent-fellow-what-old-chap has any relevance other than in the minds of Nigel Roebucks love-childs, then any other reference of greatness will have significance.

Until it does, and anytime you wish to visit the F1 Paddock you will find immediately that any such a thought is utter bilge and codswallop, then any other feeble interpretation is born solely from envy and petty-minded isolationist idiocy perpetuated by the great unweashed brain-deads who claim to follow F1 but evidently do not understand even the most basic principle of the sport, which, for those hard-of-understanding, is winning is everything.

The notion that it is the taking part that counts is ridiculous and maintained by losers.

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I'd put Senna & Prost ahead of Schumacher. I wouldn't describe either of them as losers, nor particularly nice jolly old fellas.

You need to learn that your opinion is just that, an opinion. You can support it with stats, but stats aren't everything.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

You need to learn that your opinion is just that, an opinion. You can support it with stats, but stats aren't everything.

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And you need to learn that winning is everything.

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Originally Posted by henners88

PS How does Sterling make it onto a greats list when he never won a WDC? I consider him a great but this would be disputed under the stats rule.

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Almost everyone in the sport considers Stirling Moss a great, many even believe he is the greatest ever.

I doubt Tamburello would agree.

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

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OK , so , you despise Luca , and love Ferrari .

At this point , would it be fair to say that whether Ferrari wins or not , is almost of no consequence , given that a Ferrari loss is a Luca loss , and a Ferrari win is a Ferrari win ?
In a sense , is this a win-win scenario ?

I do appreciate that a driver can redeem themselves in your eyes , but , isn't saying "I didn't like ... ,but" rather "black and white?

What about Kimi ? He brought glory to the marque one year .
But , he was seen as slack by Luca , and by most Tifosi , and continues to drag the coffers , even though gone .
Could this simply be the Luca effect again , with Kimi as unwilling to respect his employer as the Tifosi ?

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.

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When the ever so passionate and emotional tifosi have nothing but 'cold numbers' to support their hero, it speaks volumes about that hero's faults.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Almost everyone in the sport considers Stirling Moss a great, many even believe he is the greatest ever.

I doubt Tamburello would agree.

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You got one thing right.

Moss was never a champion. Any claim that he was the greatest fails on that.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Of course, if it is all about statistics, one wonders why we bother to watch, when surely a quick perusal of the results will tell us all we need to know.

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It is not statistics, it is results. Cold, hard results. Unambigious,

Those in denial claim they are statistics.

Those who understand the purpose of the competition appreciate that they are results.

those with the results can be considered as having the greatest results, doesn't mean that everyone will share the OPINION (a word missing from a few preceding posts) that they are the greatest.

its hard to argue that MS is not the greatest, especially if you only look at results (which is it Tamb and Ioan, facts and results or opinion, both of you claim opinion in your signatures), but there is more to the competition than the final results. its the manner in which they are acheived that goes so far to form peoples opinion, which, i believe, people are perfectly entitled to, according to signature law round here.

i'd agree he's probably the greatest of his era, and that ferrari were probably the greatest team in that era, based on results, but i can't compare to previous generations without introducing opinion and favouritism, whislt if i do the same for MS era he'd also be in a fight with a few others.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Those who understand the purpose of the competition appreciate that they are results.

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The purpose of the competition is to win, agreed, but the driver who wins the most is not necessarily the best driver, for he is just one member of the team, (albeit an important one).

Only a lunatic would describe, say, Gary Neville, as a better footballer than Steven Gerrard, but Gary's the one with the medals because he has been part of a successful team.

Ultimately, I'm prepared to accept your opinion that Michael Schumacher is the greatest but I'm not prepared to accept that it is fact.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

which is it Tamb and Ioan, facts and results or opinion, both of you claim opinion in your signatures

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Fact - Michael Schumacher has won more titles and Grand Prix's than anybody else. Since nobody else has a greater success, that makes him the greatest.

Opinion - Ron Dennis is a W____r.

Never having seen him masturbate, I accept that this is merely an opinion.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Grand Prix's

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Grands Prix, surely.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I don't mean to be funny but the comparisons when trying to argue who is greater are just too complex.

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Only to those in denial of the facts.

Please tell me who has the greatest number of World Drivers Championship Titles and who has won the greatest number of Grand Prix wins?

There is the answer.

Anything else is pathetic.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Grands Prix, surely.

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Apologies. French is only my third language.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Only to those in denial of the facts.

Please tell me who has the greatest number of World Drivers Championship Titles and who has won the greatest number of Grand Prix wins?

There is the answer.

Anything else is pathetic.

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It's always the same old story. You offer an opinion, get frustrated that people have the temerity to disagree and ultimately end up throwing insults around.

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Originally Posted by henners88

So do you have a complex about someone else having a different opinion or something? Notice how everyone else is maintaining a civil level in this debate, yet you are calling people pathetic. We don't share your opinion simple as that, you obviously care what myself and others think as you wouldn't be getting so personal with your responses.

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You need to differentiate between calling an deliberately incorrect response pathetic and calling another poster pathetic.

I have done the first, not the latter.

Once again, nice attempt to troll, but reallly you need to practice your technique.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

It's always the same old story. You offer an opinion, get frustrated that people have the temerity to disagree and ultimately end up throwing insults around.

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I offered facts. You offered opinion.

Big difference.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Fact - Michael Schumacher has won more titles and Grand Prix's than anybody else. Since nobody else has a greater success, that makes him the greatest.

Opinion - Ron Dennis is a W____r.

Never having seen him masturbate, I accept that this is merely an opinion.

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you are of course entirely correct, when the criteria for judging the greatest is solely the results acheived.

if the "greatest" is a subjective, opinion based judgement then you'll have to accept some opinions don't tally with yours.

Fact, MS won more titles and GP's than anyone. That makes him the driver who won the most GP's and titles, therefore he has the best results. if your judging that as your sole requirement for greatness, then yes, he is the greatest. i'd call it the most successful, as i consider "greatest" to be a subjective title. Chuck in fairness, Sportmanship, personality and other things that others might include in their judgement of there opinion and thir assessment could well be different.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

you are of course entirely correct, when the criteria for judging the greatest is solely the results acheived.

if the "greatest" is a subjective, opinion based judgement then you'll have to accept some opinions don't tally with yours.

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I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

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fair enough, thats your opinion. i see the cold, hard, facts as purely a measure of the most success. you could even say the greatest success, but i will stop short of "greatest", as i do consider it a subjective assessment.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

...when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari, you just moved on and ignored the whole thing.

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And where is the surprise in that?

Gary

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

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I get that, but it is based on your specific definition of the "greatest". A case could also be made for the definition to be based on win/loss ratio. For others, me included, it is a much broader definition that does include a lot of subjective parameters as well. Looking at a pure dictionary definition of "greatest" yields a WIDE interpretation of what does or does not make one the greatest. Given your specific targeted definition, I don't think any one would (or could) disagree. I think, though, that not everyone (me included) agrees with that targeted definition. Even in the context of an F1 team I don't think results are the ONLY factor. They do make up a HUGE coefficient of the equation if one were to try to develop an arithmetic formula. But given two drivers of equal record, I'd venture to guess other things like how they treat the equipment, how they treat the rest of the hired help, might also weigh on which of the two the owner felt was greater. For the fan that coefficient would probably be somewhat smaller and other coefficients would come into play that the owner might have little, if any, interest in.

Coming from the background you do, it makes sense that you define the greatest in the way you do. Coming from the otherside of the fence, mine is considerably different. But I admit, mine is a purely subjective definition. For me personal character weighs in quite a lot. And therefore my opinion of MS is much less than yours. While I do consider him the winningest driver in F1, by no means do I consider him the "greatest". I am sorry but I just can't put that moniker on a driver who intentionally tries to take out a competitor by punting them off the road.

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greatest - 3 dictionary results
great  /greɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [greyt] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, adverb, noun, plural greats, (especially collectively) great, interjection

–adjective 1. unusually or comparatively large in size or dimensions: A great fire destroyed nearly half the city.
2. large in number; numerous: Great hordes of tourists descend on Europe each summer.
3. unusual or considerable in degree, power, intensity, etc.: great pain.
4. wonderful; first-rate; very good: We had a great time. That's great!
5. being such in an extreme or notable degree: great friends; a great talker.
6. notable; remarkable; exceptionally outstanding: a great occasion.
7. important; highly significant or consequential: the great issues in American history.
8. distinguished; famous: a great inventor.
9. of noble or lofty character: great thoughts.
10. chief or principal: the great hall; his greatest novel.
11. of high rank, official position, or social standing: a great noble.
12. much in use or favor: “Humor” was a great word with the old physiologists.
13. of extraordinary powers; having unusual merit; very admirable: a great statesman.
14. of considerable duration or length: We waited a great while for the train.
15. Informal. a. enthusiastic about some specified activity (usually fol. by at, for, or on): He's great on reading poetry aloud.
b. skillful; expert (usually fol. by at or on): He's great at golf.

16. being of one generation more remote from the family relative specified (used in combination): a great-grandson.

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Gary

Fangio won 5 World Championships and probably would have won more if there wasn't a war in the way. He had a better winning rate.

Jim Clark also had a higher winning rate and probably would have won more if it wasn't for the fact that he was dead.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

I don't accept that the "greatest" tag is subjective when dealing with those cold, hard, facts.

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No you do not, no matter how cold and hard they might be.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

No offence but you go by the numbers when it suits you. When we were arguing about Kimi/Massa a while back you just stated that Massa beat Kimi without looking into the matter, and when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari...

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What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?
I believe that Felipe had the better numbers so what was there to argue anymore?! You should be happy that I didn't stress it anymore, instead you keep arguing a lost point. :confused:

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Fangio won 5 World Championships and probably would have won more if there wasn't a war in the way. He had a better winning rate.

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Team orders. Instead of scoring a DNF he'd jump into his team mate's car.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

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It's a shame that you can't start a thread with the intention of supporting a team and not have it turn into a bash fest. Personally I think it simply proves that many can't handle the sucess Ferrari and some of their key drivers have had in recent years.

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Originally Posted by ioan

What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?

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Originally Posted by ioan

I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

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And we really wish YOU learned to write one day, preferably sooner than later.

Gary

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Originally Posted by ioan

What exactly means about the same number of points/finished race?
I believe that Felipe had the better numbers so what was there to argue anymore?! You should be happy that I didn't stress it anymore, instead you keep arguing a lost point. :confused:

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Kimi: WDC 1
Massa: WDC 0

There is a cold, hard fact for you. Everything else is a meaningless...

I pity Ferrari now when MS has signed the deal with Mercedes. They are lost now

Ah well, each to their own. Tamburello likes it cold and hard and that's his prerogative.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Looks like the Ferrari and MS haters took over this thread, again.
I really wish you guys learned to read one day, preferably sooner than later.

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and here comes the same old Ioan, some one disagrees with him so they are a "Hater", yet he claims others are the ones trolling or flaming?

when someone offers opinions, you argue they are pathetic and counter with facts. when the facts don't fit, your happy to post your opinion, in complete contradiction with your earlier post along the lines that you only go by facts and results, the cold, hard type. all along posting a signature that everything is your opinion and you'll try to back it up. Despite all this you have the temerity to trash others posts because "you hate hypocrisy". all seemingly without a hint of irony.

i put it to you that it is you who is the "Hater", seeing as you appear to be completley intolerant of anyone elses point of view.

i agree this thread has become slightly derailed, but MS is part of Ferraris great history, and now his comeback is confirmed, part of the current story. i'm fantastically excited to see him back, i think parts of his last season was some of his best, i am of the opinion he mellowed a little towards the end of his pervious stint and some of his drives were exceptional, Brazil especially. i'm intrigued to see if he still has it, and even more so to see how the new Merc/Brawn performs, given the platform of this years car, and the chance to correct the compromises made on the car at the start of last season. IMO if they are anywhere near the front MS will fight for race wins and potentially a title - that would be a great story regardless of what i felt for him earlier in his career.

i also think it closes the book nicely on his career finishing up with Mercedes after his earlier associtaion with them despite never having previously competed with them in F1, its like its unfinished business, almost repyaing a favour.

With Luca, Domi, FA and FM, an all latino lineup Ferrai are lost.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

With Luca, Domi, FA and FM, an all latino lineup Ferrai are lost.

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:rolleyes: Quiet you fool!

If anything they're going to be riding high. Ferrari took more time to develop the car, Alonso is fast, and Massa knows how to play second fiddle.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

:rolleyes: Quiet you fool!

If anything they're going to be riding high. Ferrari took more time to develop the car, Alonso is fast, and Massa knows how to play second fiddle.

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BMW took time to develop the car for this year, and it didn't exactly work, did it? It's all up in the air for the moment and anyone's guess is as good as yours.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

BMW took time to develop the car for this year, and it didn't exactly work, did it? It's all up in the air for the moment and anyone's guess is as good as yours.

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Don't you think it's a little silly to suggest that Ferrari is going to fail because of Latinos?

My guess is as good as yours, but there's no way to justify Mia's statement.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Don't you think it's a little silly to suggest that Ferrari is going to fail because of Latinos?

My guess is as good as yours, but there's no way to justify Mia's statement.

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OK, that's true and by the way Italians are Italians just as Finns are Finns. The definition Latino is rarely used in Europe, more in the new world although Luca Di whatever seems to have picked it up.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

OK, that's true and by the way Italians are Italians just as Finns are Finns. The definition Latino is rarely used in Europe, more in the new world although Luca Di whatever seems to have picked it up.

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Forget Luca, he's just a political Bozo.

I have noticed that di Montezemolo has been criticized here for his decisions over the past few years. Well, I speculate that the reason behind those decisions may have been his personal wish to be more in the limelight. In the days of MS/Todt/Brawn he was somehow left in the shadow, but for instance in 2009 he has got quite a lot of attention - for example by being the chairman of FOTA, while battling against FIA.

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Originally Posted by jens

I have noticed that di Montezemolo has been criticized here for his decisions over the past few years. Well, I speculate that the reason behind those decisions may have been his personal wish to be more in the limelight. In the days of MS/Todt/Brawn he was somehow left in the shadow, but for instance in 2009 he has got quite a lot of attention - for example by being the chairman of FOTA, while battling against FIA.

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Yes, it does seem as though Luca forgot what made the Scuderia so successful in its previous management guise.

Even more surprising when considering that he himself was part of a previous tight-knitted management team in the mid-70's.