I will probably be banned for this, but...shooting thread!

Blimey chuck, stop crying into your pantyhose with your victim mentality. Bloody Liberal ;)

We're debating here. Talking, conversing, exploring.

How you can equate people on a Global forum discussing Global Gun ownership with American foreign policy which has lead to hundreds of thousands of deaths in recent years is beyond me.

Get over it.

(Supposed to be tongue in cheek and not too serious :D )

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

My overriding reaction to this is: what a demonstration of victim mentality.

Also, you fail, Chuck, to grasp one essential difference between those who object to America imposing itself around the world and those here who are against the American gun laws. Those who say the US should, as you put it, 'keep our noses out of other people's business' are objecting to years of policy on the part of successive US administrations, some of whose foreign policy adventures have been deeply counterproductive to global security. All those of us here who object to US gun laws are doing is voicing our opinion against one law and the basis for it. We are entitled to do so, and will go on doing so. This is totally unconnected to any criticism of US foreign policy, except for the extent to which I believe there exists in sections of US society a certain 'gung-ho', 'trigger-happy' mentality which guarantees public support for misguided efforts like the 2003 Iraq conflict — an entirely separate discussion.

You say that Americans are often criticised for their lack of understanding of other cultures. I consider it wrong to apply this across the board, but from my experiences on these forums I can see exactly what people mean, I'm sorry to say. Does not the often greater worldliness of Europeans, and our greater understanding of other cultures, render it far from hypocritical for us to make comments on said cultures?

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My overriding reaction to this is: what a demonstration of a superiority complex.

What a joke. Somehow you claim that it is ok for you as a European to critise anything the US does either in foreign or domestic policy because somehow you are more "worldly" than I am. You know next to nothing about me, my world travels, and knowledge of other cultures. Just as I know next to nothign about you. What makes you so special? What makes you more "worldly" than me, or anyone else for that matter?

So what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either I have the right to cricise European affairs, or you do not. That is all I am saying.

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Originally Posted by Eki

Because you try to tell the rest of the world how to live. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea,..., etc. You don't understand their cultures or even our cultures and don't live like they or even us live. Why are their nuclear power plants or even nuclear weapons any of your business?

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Because you are trying to tell the US how to live. You don't understand our culture, and you don't live like we do. Why are our guns any of your business.

Don't you see your hypocracy?

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Where is anyone on this thread saying that? :s

Where is anyone on this thread saying that? :s

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Hmmm. So you guys saying that we should outlaw guns is NOT telling us how to live??? I guess I do live in bizzaro world.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Why so defensive?

Why can't we simply debate the pros-cons of private firearms ownership, weather in the U.S. or elsewhere?

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Defensive? No. Sick and tired of the hypocracy? Yes.

If you want to debate the pros and cons. Then fine. But all too often other thread devolve into Europeans telling Americans to but out of other people's business. Yet they do the exact same thing when it comes to the US. I'm tired of the hypocracy.

Let's debate the pros and cons. I'm good with that. But please, in the future, when we are debating something in Europe, or elsewhere, please do not tell Americans that we can't have an opinion because we don't know/understand a culture.

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Originally Posted by Starter

So I guess that means that the US should have minded it's own business in 1943. The war with Japan was justified because of their attack on US territory but the US should have stayed out of Europe as there was no direct threat? I guess the US should also have withdrawn from all of Europe at the end of WWII and left the European countries to deal with the USSR - another European country?

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How about Bosnia? I suppose we should have allowed the genocide to continue there as well. Or many places in Africa now. There is an undercurrent of voices starting to cry out for the US to get involved there now.

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Why so defensive?

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Because all of these people are far more frightened than we are. I don't consider this a positive trait.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

My overriding reaction to this is: what a demonstration of a superiority complex.

What a joke. Somehow you claim that it is ok for you as a European to critise anything the US does either in foreign or domestic policy because somehow you are more "worldly" than I am. You know next to nothing about me, my world travels, and knowledge of other cultures. Just as I know next to nothign about you. What makes you so special? What makes you more "worldly" than me, or anyone else for that matter?

So what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either I have the right to cricise European affairs, or you do not. That is all I am saying.

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Chuck, nowhere in my post was I referring to you, because while I may have disagreements with you on this and other issues, I don't lump you in with those Americans one encountered who are depressingly insular, so I'd like an apology for your diatribe — one better suited to an inarticulate rant against you rather than what I deliberately intended to be a measured post.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Because all of these people are far more frightened than we are. I don't consider this a positive trait.

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I am not frightened of anything. With the possible exception of the government growing too power hungary and taking away more of our rights, which is happening all the time.

Once again, for the record, I don't own a gun. But I will fight to my last breath to make sure that people who do choose to own one, have that right. For whatever reason they choose, frightened of their neighbors, pleasure, government encroachment, just for the hell of it. The reason does not matter.

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Originally Posted by Starter

3) We got into Iraq because of the lies and fabrications of some in our government who were working their own agenda. We're having a hell of a time getting out. (An excellent example of why people may need to stay armed to protect themselves from their own government or, more precisely, those in any culture who strive to take control of things to their own ends.)

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There seem to be enough firearms in the hands of Afghans, unless you hadn't noticed. A fat lot of good they are doing, too.

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Originally Posted by Starter

4) Afghanistan suffers from Iraq. We took our eye off the ball after 9/11 by allowing ourselves to be detoured into Iraq. Afghanistan would have been over and done but for that. And Osama and cronies would have been dead much sooner.

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Really? I doubt it. Afghanistan is going to be in dire straits for decades to come. It is naive to suggest that it would have been anything other than a long haul had it not been for Iraq. And let's not forget the significant numbers of your countrymen who apparently believed that Iraq was 'something to do with '9/11'' even when there was no evidence whatsoever for this.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I am not frightened of anything. With the possible exception of the government growing too power hungary and taking away more of our rights, which is happening all the time.

Once again, for the record, I don't own a gun. But I will fight to my last breath to make sure that people who do choose to own one, have that right. For whatever reason they choose, frightened of their neighbors, pleasure, government encroachment, just for the hell of it. The reason does not matter.

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And neither, apparently, does the level of intelligence or competence of the people holding them.