Drama queen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
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Drama queen...Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Yes if you are like yourself you do that, but if know how to put things into perspective you can leave the nature of the sport intact and make it safer as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Fully agree again.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
About lakes, well it reminds me of last year Mexico and the crash of Tanak, i think also here they (the organisation and/or the rally safety-responsible within the FIA) had to put something like a big barrier (or a unnature chicane so the speed was less) so that no car could end up in the lake because both men had really lucky because we all saw how fast the car went under and we all know we people are not made for living under water...
It's up to crews to recce the stages and drive accordingly.. its not like hinkelseins pop up out of nowhere. They are a known danger.
Put barriers along a lake and drivers think they are safer so go faster and crash into a tree... a harder impact than water.
Is your every day life as hard as it is in here ?
Lake, river, hinkelsteins, trees, rocks, spectators, weather, cows it's all part of the rally and the stages but if you can build some extra safety who couldn't agree with that. To bring some extra safety that doesn't kill the rallystage nor the whole rally itself, no it safes the rally-sport in general and in the end lifes of people. No rally-driver wants to be killed in a accident but even the best rally-drivers make mistakes for whatever reason and that's a fact. So if we can help to make the sport a bit safer including the spectators what's wrong with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Are you so stupid to ignore that or didn't you have your pill today ?
I am afraid its his normal condition, but no need for personal insults.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacko
i think that N.O.T is kidnapped and it is his twin brother speaking here. The one who lives in land of peace and love. And likes knitting and potato farming.
It´s the speed that kills. Pls remember that. Best thing WRC-rallying with 100hp cars and simple summer pattern tyres, but as long as that will not happen N.O.T. has the very point in this discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jacko
hps are a variable in a safety discussion, it's impossible to deny it, the slower the safer. But if power is one of the many variable, the nature of the sport should be the constant. To me it's important to have a number of hp that is the safer possible but that will preserve the nature of the sport.
The hinkelsteins are some rocks in a couple of german stages, if they go in another place without them is ok to me. But let me say that it is a bit strange that some try to avoid some rocks in a couple of corners and some other add speed to already fast cars.
It's difficult to find the right balance between hp and safety. Any car going with 200 km/h can be dangerous, but the more hp, the more wow effect. As for hinkelsteins they're just part of the scenery at Panzerplatte, nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
nobody said it's easy :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Now imagine they cancel the Volcano stage from Azores because it could actually erupt.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
Poor old man. When making something safer, you can't forget the mentality of a driver who is racing. If it feels safer, they will be going faster attempting to squeeze the very last out of as many turns as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Let's take the famous Valtra tractors from Harju stage (Finland) and bales from Poland and Germany. Drivers said the tractors are too dangerous and should be replaced with bales that are safer. Did anyone hit the tractor? No. Now think what has happened with the bales in Germany and Poland. They are like punching bags that get no respect from the drivers. They hit, push or kiss them. If there's no natural danger instinct kicking in, there's absolutely nothing holding them back.
You can put the crews in 100bhp cars that are running on standard summer tire pattern. If it is a race, the top guys will be gunning for it anyway. And if they are going for it, there's absolutely nothing that could save them from a mistake that could lead into a crash. And freak accidents happen.
If they would find I reason to cancel it is not because of the eruption. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
I hope you will never have any safety task or responsibility in any kind of context or scenario :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Of course not, but they could, couldn't they;)Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
Oh, I'd bring gravel traps and grass back to F1 tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
Tho would had preferred, if you had kept the whole paragraph in the quote not just the first half of it.
This is spot on. The rest of you are in denial.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Who are you, Mr Know-it-all on rallying.. stop being pathetic. No wonder you have no 'likes' for anyone...Quote:
Originally Posted by jacko
If you start taking things out of a stage that have been there for years that everyone knows, then it's the thin end of the wedge and rallying will be neutered...
If the world's best rally drivers arent asking for such changes, why are you ?
Glad i've no likes, what are we talking about man. I'm talking about a seriuos issue called safety and you about how many likes ?!? Funny poor guy, it's says enough about you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Oh and some quotes from a rally driver, maybe you know him, Sebastien Ogier: he encouraged the FIA's investigation about the Hinkelsteins on stage Panzerplatte saying:
"We all know that zero risk will never happen in rallying and, of course, these hinkelsteins are one of hardest things that we can hit," he said.
"They are never moving and that's definitely bad for us.
"Maybe an idea is to try to protect them with a wall of some sort. It's not so many sections, it's just a few where the speed is very high - these are the dangerous places.
If the world's best rally drivers are asking for such changes, not many but on the real dangerous places, why don't you ?
Ogier is not talking for himself. He handles Panzerplatte just fine!
Thing with Ogier is if you ask him a question he will answer it, he will say exactly what he feels, its a good thing, no PR bull
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
It's sooooo I don't know what to try and counter any non-competitor when THEY start getting not just interested but in a lather about anything conceivably related to the general idea of safety!!!!!!:eek:
I spent a couple decades not slamming some poncy cars with incredible cages into things---I was busy slamming my body into things....Odd thing is that I was never asked if I needed warning not to hit all the various BIG rocks or rock walls or big trees sometimes just quite literally 3-4 inches away from the handle bars or footpegs...
I have this vision of the Safety Screamers thinking perhaps we should walk slowly thru every meter of every SS and somebody---and a priest with some boys with the smoking urns following saying " (Mumble mumble, some indistinct Latin) "Protect us from THIS rock---don't hit it...." "Protect us from THIS rock---don't hit it...." "Protect us from THIS rock---don't hit it...." "Protect us from THIS rock---don't hit it...." "Protect us from THIS tree---don't hit it...."
"Protect us from THIS house---don't hit it...."
"Protect us from THIS rock---don't hit it...."
Some crazy slow procession of the sinners..
I wish maybe somebody would have maybe occasionally reminded by not to hit the ground so often--especially with my poor head.
But oddly, once I started doing Stage rally, without anybody ever mentioning it, I never hit any of the huge trucks or road graders or water trucks or other big nasty bright yellow equipment the logging companies around here leave out in the woods...And oddly I didn't hit other cars on transits, or trees or houses either...
Without any special warning..
I wonder if I'm a genius or
maybe warnings and worry at some point are absurdities...because they are so fawkin obvious to anybody actually doing this sport IF they have an few ounces of brains.
(I did hit the ground with the roof a couple of times, still working on that:rolleyes:)
Incorrect, it is the sudden stop that kills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
In these kind of shocking accidents we always try to find something, or someone, to blame for, sometimes forgetting that accidents are a part of the sport. On this one, the most important factor has also been forgotten: Lefebvre and Moreau injuries result from their car hitting a tree, not from hitting hinkelsnteins.
Even if hinkelsteins are artificial and may look a bit frightening (probably organizers will now eagerly place some tires on the messier spots), it’s also true that they’re quite similar to many natural obstacles that can be found alongside rally roads and no one, in his right mind, cares to remove.
Btw, as some of you already mentioned, the speed increase on WRC stages is another factor to look for. It raises a paradox, probably even more noticeable next year: as cars becomes faster, organizers must work to make roads slower…
The tractors in Finland were a totally different matter and the perfect illustration of a brainless rally innovation: chicanes are supposed to make stages safer, not more dangerous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Besides, if we start to pick bizarre obstacles in order to get average Joe’s attention, we’ll end turning Rally into a Circus or a sort of Mad Max races (for that purpose Gymkhanas, Drift and RX were already invented…).
The Valtra trctor chikanes was on a Micky Mouse stage specially made for average Joe. I can´t understand why it´s a topic. Hit the tractor and you are out. Your choice as a driver. Besides it was not in high speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
And Valtra did put some amount of money in the event. So ... ?
They tested that place before with speed radar, maximum speed was 47km/hQuote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I'll use a different analogy then. You wouldn't mind hitting a very young tree (minimal damage to the car), if there was a chance you could go faster at that turn. But would you have the same approach to the corner if that tree was much older and stronger?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
…no matters what, it still was an avoidable risk!Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Btw, what could be next?...
http://dieselsuppliersindubai.com/wp...tion_pic_1.jpg
https://www.liebherr.com/CMS/images/...s_Showcase.png
http://www.diseno-art.com/news_conte...icecream-2.jpg
safety to some - danger to another
tank stopper - car killer >>> https://youtu.be/9GVZPQpTVJ8
http://www.motoringalliance.com/foru...inkelstein.jpg
Constant blows to the head? mmmm... that explains a lot!Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
And the darwin award goes to...Quote:
Originally Posted by danon
Of course i would not expect better from a person that visits a WRC event to take "pro" artistic pictures of hairpins.
Useless masterless dogs with no use to society
A small onboard video from Suarez.
Nice onboard cam.
https://www.instagram.com/p/BJ3bkiwhA8F/
Στλθηκε απ το LG-D802 μου χρησιμοποιντας Tapatalk
All this hp vs safety debate is ignoring the fact that the increase in power is expected around 20%. That will not result in a 20% speed increase...
The place where Lefebvre crashed they are probably going to do 175 km/h rather than 165 km/h... If even that because they will likely have to brake/lift before the corner next year.
We won't see cars go insane speeds next year... Probably maximum 10% increase at the end of the straights.
Roll cage safety has massively increased since the day of group b, we have flexible fuel tanks, strengthening triangles everywhere, hans devices, six point harnesses (or 5, can't remember right now). The biggest issue is impact from the sides still, like what Michael Park died from... And that's an issue regardless of speed. If you go sideways into a tree with your road car at 70 you are likely to get killed too.
The slight increase in power and control in corners is not the difference between life and death in a crash.
Putting tires on the Hinkelsteins is not going to help either as that would just act as a ramp to propel the car into the forest.
What they should do is look at good natural ways to keep the speed down in dangerous high speed areas. Not another hay bale chicane but some neater solution.
They won't go much faster on straights (also thanks to higher drag). They will go reasonably faster through corners. That is obviously more important for crash situation that the speed on straights which isn't that important in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by itix
The severity of a crash is determined by how fast the object at speed (driver and car) is halted, and we are not talking a 50% speed increase in the corners here. Probably maximum 10% if even that. Wk=mv²/ 2 gives an increase in kinetic energy of 21% if the increased speed is 10%. This is not what determine life or death in a crash situation.
Also with R2-power and WRC safety you could kill someone in a sideways impact in finland towards a tree... or say that the same car in a high speed event hits a rock on the inside of the corner and it throws the car on it's side into a tree, just so that it hits the windshield.
I can guarantee that will be bye bye both driver and codriver considering how much damage there was to that area of Camili's car in Monte this year from a relatively low speed impact.
The increased speed is not what will make or break the safety situation.
Actually for side-impact the cars will be safer. According to Sven Smeets (in an interview with autonews magazine), inside the new cars there's more space between the seats of the drivers and the doors.