I hope the onboard didn't have low fps..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
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I hope the onboard didn't have low fps..Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
I think more power, lesser grip is a way to make more spectacle. Shorter suspention to.Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
I don't know, there are some statements, so not too much speculations...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
And I also don't know if they will look spectacular as you and other say. Looking at testing they are very much boring, and also ugly.
Am I the only one who thinks that WRC cars don't need more power than now? I think they should have focused on finding a way to have more different cars between manufacturers, keeping the same level of power and grip. I can't enter in technical discussions, and I don't know how it can be done but I do think more variety should have been the main purpose.
As for now I think cars are fast enough by the way.
Yes, the current cars are fast enough. As ever, those 'in the know' - are addressing the wrong issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
are you trying to give me cancer you 2 legged life forms ?Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
http://i.imgur.com/LAvQY0s.gif
I believe more power isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if they add more grip via aero/width/suspension, then that just makes the cars go from point A to point B faster. Not necessarily making the car more spectacular.
If you watch Hayden Paddon at Otago last weekend (example http://youtu.be/PScjE2GuZbw ), sideways into blind crests everywhere, THATS spectacular and is a great display of driving skill and confidence in the car. We need more of that type of action, not the boring nose end first/tidy style which looks more like watching WTCC.
That I believe is why some have mentioned Group A too, more limited tyre tech, moderate power and limited suspension travel meant the cars were more spectacular as they were thrown at corners.
You don't need to implement the Grp A regulations but only some parts of it like engine size, car size (2/4 door sedans) and the general look/sound of those cars.
The celica and the Subaru Impreza 555 Group A are really amazing sounding cars. Today's cars are too small. It speaks for itself that a fiesta that is much smaller and light
compared to an Impreza or a Lancer is more "gocart-ish". It's the basic law of physics.
I also agree that the actual rallies needs to have a more feeling of endurance then they have today. I think there is something wrong when not
even the Swedish rally have any proper "dark-stages". By 5pm all stages are complete and that includes a long lunch break.
http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/april...9--12-12-.html just speaking of the devil...
not bad at all
https://www.rallytheworld.com/polo-r-wrc-2017
So close...Quote:
Originally Posted by drive
http://images.wrc.com/News/2015/July...1_896x504.jpg?
LOL....VW looks great IMO!
looks awful. Is it a rally car or a DTM car?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
maybe a WTCC car? yeah they should have gone back to the C segment perhaps...Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
There we go again with the Group A story..... Those were the most boring cars ever! The sport is growing and that cant be said about most motorsport disciplines today, the car formula isnt the problem, the lack of competition is the major fault right now. The problem is that for the past decade the Universe as blessed us with super-human Sebastiens and as long as another one is found not much can be done.
Latvala and an unnamed driver also think the current cars are powerful/fast enough and need less aero not more to be more spectacular...Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Latvala said that more power is welcome!! Which it is! He doesn`t think that more aero and actice centre diff is necessaryQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
I'm guessing your still school/university age? If you had experienced the rallying from '90 to '96 you would know the sport was huge then, the crowds and media interest were on a completely different scale to now.
Many sports have had eras of dominance by individuals and teams, rallying is certainly not alone in this, where rallying has failed has been in its marketing, technology has moved on but WRC in particular has been slow to move forward and embrace and use livestreaming etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
Nope way more exciting then today's kitcar kocarts. The Subuaru Impreza 555 and the Toyta Celica sound and look so much
better then the modern mini-cars with their mini engines. The Celica and the Impreza sounds powerful. For those car are
the actual definition of a rally car. Today's cars are too generic. Slap a big wing at the back and think the car automatically looks cool.
They try to copy WTCC and WRC too much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMMXqq6vqM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVjvQLCL9Ag
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XblrFPdkwM
These care iconic legends. Nobody will care about the fiesta or the polo in a few years time.
Then the might be other problems with the actual Group A general regulation but you can still use modern technology but keep
the old school look and sound. The issue for me with the WRC is that the cars are too small and have too small engines.
I'm guessing you are 42, +or- 5 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by BleAivano
The problem now is not the cars, their looks, sound and speed are fine, the problem is how the sport is presented.
How about the fact that we need more hairpins, more WRC cars in events no matter who drives them, more lakes in the pictures and that WRC+, at the end, is a great service?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Must be the other driver then who thinks "you wouldnt want to go much faster than the cars do now..."Quote:
Originally Posted by AMSS
Im slightly under 30 but thats completely besides the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
In those years, even though some managed to be champions more than once, you could say entrylists had 4 or 5 drivers who could legit fight for victory, can you say that now?! Absolutely not. Thats the problem as of now.
It's not beside the point, people are rarely completely objective and usually misunderstand eras that were not at their own personal sweet spot, ie your late teens/early 20s when typically people have more freedom of both time and money to enjoy stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis44
If you look at other sports you will see that well presented and marketed sports don't collapse when one individual or team dominates.
ps. remember your original post that I had quoted, you said GpA cars were boring, you also said the sport is growing now!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nornbugger
Isnt it?! Last time I checked for 2017 we can expect five manufacturers, not long ago we had just two. Im not saying there isnt a problem with the sport and how it is marketed, what Im saying is that the car formula is hardly the problem.
If VW continue to dominate, then it won't matter how many manufacturers there are; media & public interest, coverage, etc just won't be there.
weel, I think the latter. Of course, I have said the same from the beginning, so you feel free to call me genius 😇Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
For me the main problem with the sport is the complete dominance of Volkswagen and Sebastian Ogier.
I like Ogier however I know before I watch a rally that unless something major happens to him, or the FIA do everything they can to make him not win (even then he grabs a podium) then he is going to take the victory.
I don't think Volkswagen and Ogier should be penalised for doing a brilliant job and for being the quickest, I think the other teams and drivers need to step up.
If each rally there were 3/4 drivers who could legitimately take the win for being the quickest then it would be so much more interesting to me. I think this is a problem too, there are not enough great drivers out there (look at problem Toyota are going to have).
I'm happy about the extra power, a lot of road cars these days have more HP than current WRC cars so to me this is a good thing however I do think the cars need a bit more variation and a bit less grip.
Imagine how exciting it would be (even with current cars) if each rally you had no idea who was going to win and it was a fight right down to the end of the rally, for me that's what needs to change to make the sport more interesting - new regulations will just mean Ogier winning the rallies just in a new car.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
A healthy sport is a good place for teams to be, the lack of profile the sport has is much more of an issue than VW/Citroen/Seb x2 dominance.
If the 2017 wrc cars will be easier to drive, that means drivers would have more equal speed. Probably that is what counts FIA on. Though I believe VW will just be even more dominant force with technology advantage.
The rot started during the Loeb era; the profile of the sport became lower and lower, as any element of competition evaporated, especially after Gronholm retired. That led to a dearth of talented drivers coming through. What we see now is just a continuation of that, meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The situation you describe regarding rallies going down to the wire with multiple possible winners hasn't been seen since about 2004. I'm not sure it's coming back.Quote:
Originally Posted by markf8691
Would also be nice with some profiles in the field, that could be a bit controversial and make some headlines. As when Petter played psyco games with the rest of the field, and also had the Pirellis that could be a joker in some rallies.
We need some uncertanties in WRC, and not like today.
It is the same in both F1 and WRC; you know what car that will win, and 90% what driver in WRC. Percetange is lower in F1, but same principle!
Hyundai Motorsport @HMSGOfficial
A new name on our car... #WRC #HyundaiWRC
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cf7Agu_W4AU3sCo.jpg
Echappment Mag test?
Or Tour de Corse preview? I thaught he said something about Fiesta WRC
Neuville was very fortunate of the timing of his best season in 2013, with Hyundai coming in, and it was sellers market. And despite a negative trend in the following three years, he is still fortunate, because as several people state here, he will be wanted by several teams (Ford, Citroën and Ford), so his paycheck is at least secured for some years to come, all tough his results might not be if he doesnt change his approach.
Regarding giving Citröen/Loeb the blame for the rally "rut", I think that is a little to simple.
Yes, a driver winning 9 championships in a row is not a good sign by any means, but if other drivers and teams where in real contention it still could be entertaining. Rossi hasnt "destroyed" Moto GP the same way Ferrari/Schumacher, Citroën/Michelin/Loeb did, but why?
In the WRC I think it is several important factors.
In 2003 you had several very strong teams:
- Ford with Martin, Duval and Hirvonen, and Latvala part time.
- Peugeout with Grönholm, Burns, and part timers Loix, Panizzi and Rovenpära.
- Subaru off cource with Solberg and Mäkinen
- Hyundai with Loix and Schwartz and several part timers.
- Skoda with Auriol and Gardermeister and some part timers.
- And off cource Citroen with McCrae, Sainz, Loeb and part timers Bugalski and Sola.
In 2002 you also had Mitsubishi, and in 2001 also Seat.
It was a great number of teams (off course with various levels of performance), but a great number of open driver seats, which meant that it was a bidding war to secure the best drivers, and it was a sellers market (drivers market), which again meant that it was possible for true talent to become works WRC drivers, whit out having to pay their way in (Petter Solberg was a prime example).
And because of this, it was also a very good manufacturer backed junior series in the S1600 (you will get drivers and teams to a junior series if there is a hope that it will lead some where).
But then several things happened.
Peugeot made a terrible decision in developing the 307 cab as a WRC car. And if that wasn't bad enough, they did it with four gears and a terrible active centre diff mapping. Effectively ending Grönholms bid for the championship.
Petter Solberg was a real challenge to Loeb also in 2004, and would be much closer to winning the championship (he was clearly the fastest driver in this year), if not for several technical miss haps from the Prodrive Subaru. But also because of Michelin developing their "super tire", leaving Pirelli for dead.
In 2005 the real downturn started in Prodrive, with technical regulations stipulating it to be a very difficult task to develop a fast Subaru (engine type and position wasn't an advantage to say the least), and a lot of internal things at Prodrive ended in a real negative spiral, and Petter and Subaru was effectively out of the reckoning.
Marrko Märtin was another driver that should have been able to fight Loeb for future championships, but he off course had a tragic accident.
This lead to the weakening of the competition, and all tough Loeb was/is a great driver, the combo of driver/car/tires vs the competition, made it to easy to win.
Grönholm should have been a stronger contender, also Solberg and Märtin.
And because of several bad decisions from the others, Citroën and Loeb suddenly seemed almost invisible. And then teams started to pull out. And teams like Suzuki coming in was not given a break (had they been able to do the engine modifications they wanted, maybe it could have been a different story for them), and with suddenly a lot of vacant drivers, it was buyers (teams) market.
(This is off course overly simplified)
And the day you could start bying your way in to top WRC teams, was the day it all went sour.
There was no more reason to put a lot of effort in doing a junior campaign. And there was a lot off talent falling by the way side because of lack off funds. Talent that would have been picked up just a couple of years earlier.
And with no new talent, and no real competition, Citroën/Loeb/Michelin was running against an open goal. And this off course turned off interest. And a big part of this was also the media appeal of Loeb. This is after all the entertainment business.
Had Loeb been more of an outward going guy, the story might have been different. But he alone didn't have the crowd pull of say Rossi (very visible in his WTCC campaign, and I think a big reason for Citroëns split, they tought he would gather a bigger crowd following, but didnt understand that his media traction is with us "gravel" guys, and it would have been much wiser to make a Super-Rallycross team with him and Petter), in the same manor that Schumacher didn't have it in F1.
McCrae and Solberg was very important for the popularity of the championship in their respective times. But an uncompetitive McCrae or Solberg, was not a crowd puller either.
So with less media interest, a very strong number one team, and a lot of the other teams pulling out (mostly because of results of their own bad decisions, using the financial melt down in 2008 as an excuse), the junior category left for dead, it was - and I say WAS - a negative spiral.
But now we again see a positive trend.
Yes Volkswagen and Ogier is supreme at the moment.
But with Hyundai, Citroen, and Toyota as factory teams, and a serious effort from M Sport, it is again a real search for talent.
Drivers are getting paid again, and because of this a lot of juniors are again doing big time efforts to get into the WRC, because it is a real chance of a factory drive.
There is a big vacuum on the talent side, (very clear by it not beeing any obvious drivers for Toyota), but with several factory teams in the junior categories etc, we are getting there.
- And now we see Hyundai, VW (Skoda), Citroen and Toyota (they will to) all giving young talent a chance.
Personally I think the 2017 regulations are a step in the wrong direction, and car wise I think something else is needed.
- Bigger category car, like a focus and golf in stead of Fiesta and Polo, because of bigger relevans with fans (both Golf and Focus can be bought in hot 4wd versions), and a more fitting to the age of rally fans (older than circuit fans), and I think the road car relevans is important.
(Remember how many niche type cars like the group a homologation specials that have been sold over the years, it clearly is a market)
- Shorter suspension travel
- Less aerodynamic downforce
- Powerfull engine
- Regulated tires for less grip/damage to stages
If the WRC Promotor also does its job bringing rallying up to the level it should be:
- Live streaming of the rally
- Good TV with live stages
- Taking full advantage of the eGame possibilities
- Etc
All in all I think rallying has a positive future, and is facing a positive trend the coming years.
And even tough VW will be hard to beat, now we have several teams giving it a real try, and thats what we need :)
Good summary, but really struggling to see anything you've said here that hasn't been said many times before.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
Struggle of the championship began (in my opinion) in 2004 giving 2nd subaru seat to paying Hirvonen instead of McRae...
This have also been said before but I'll say it again,
The main focus the past decade or so have been too much on cost saving and too much on "generification" of all the rallies.
I want the promoter to allow the organizers to be more unique/flexible. If a rally wants to have 3½ days of stages and no super specials then let them have it that
way although I think that 2½ like Swedish Rally should be the minimum.
Agree about car sizes. I also realize that car sizes have grown a bit the past 20 years and that today's equivalent of the likes of Impreza/Lancer (D-segment)
are probably too big to be suitable for use so I think we'll have to settle for C-segment cars.
Obviously I always get the feeling that Rallies rarely are "noob" friendly, every rally I have been too (regardless if it was Swedish rally or a local rally)
seems to have "assumed" that "everyone" already knows everything. The spectator area description in the rally magazines rarely give anything more then a basic description.
So I think it is very hard for noobs to get into the sport.
And it was supposed to be Burns, but we know the rest..Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
Sent from my A12 using Tapatalk
I’m struggling to be optimistic. Will 2017 be any different from 2011 – another time when things were going to improve?
I personally think the sport has had its best days. Times have changed and there are other series out there capturing interest more than the WRC.
Nobody; that is the teams, the FiA, the promoter wants to make the drastic changes needed to turn it around. They just seems to accept the status quo….