Toyota announces WRC plans

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Originally Posted by Hartusvuori

If placed in Finland, I can easily see the benefits of building the team in Halli, former military area. Area itself is big enough and no longer in use by military. As far as known it's been sold to a private owner now. Buildings in the area (hangars, houses, ...) might not be in top condition, so in that sense building new ones right for the purpose of the team makes sense. Biggest benefits comes from the area. They would have kilometres of narrow and wider gravel roads in use for testing. Some are even within fenced area. Some could be surfaced with tarmac. There's a working airfield. If they need big cargo, fine. If they need a bit of tarmac testing, why not. If they need to use bigger and faster gravel roads, they're available in the area. Almost all of Rally Finland pre-event testing takes place within 60 km radius from that base. Halli itself is a town small like a fly's shit, but it's one hour drive from Tampere-Pirkkala airport. Also one hour drive to Jyväskylä and less than one hour drive to downtown Tampere, which is the biggest inland city in Nordic countries.

I see some benefits for myself too. My parents-in-law live two kilometres from that former military base...

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Very nice. It would be a perfect solution.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

how rich do you think Makinen and his friends will be by the end of the project ??

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Hopefully very rich so they can buy seats for many many talentless finnish lapdogs to irritate you.

thats good news then... pity he will not enter from 2016 to add some entertainment value to the sport.

Interview with wrc.com
http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/augus...1--12-12-.html

Some points on the co-operation with TMG

JML will drive for them in 2017...

Someone already got their paycheck from Toyota?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206357448647159

Keep a name that will make sense in a lot of ways (at least for a partial program):Kimi Raikkonen...

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Originally Posted by macebig

Keep a name that will make sense in a lot of ways (at least for a partial program):Kimi Raikkonen...

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Hamburger boy !!!

I missed him...

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Originally Posted by Miika

Someone already got their paycheck from Toyota?
https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10206357448647159

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and spent it already.

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Originally Posted by N.O.T

how rich do you think Makinen and his friends will be by the end of the project ??

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Who cares!
If they win, it will all be deserved!

Another name associated with Toyota, Harry Bates, son of 4 times Australian Champion Neal Bates.

I have, and still are, very critical about the way japanese companies operate (not only in motorsport). And as I have written before I think the Toyota WRC project will be a massive failure (not because of Mäkkinen) because they will do the same stupid decisions like Honda in F1 has annouced.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/120287

If anybody was ever in doubt on why Japan is a shadow of its former glory, it's because of their pathetic nationalist way of doing things. They refuse to take input from something non-japanese. I doubt even Mäkkinen can change that...

I remember subaru 04-06 was totally f***ed up because of some F1 engineers and a blind thrust on computers. They didn't listen to the drivers at all, maybe something similiar is the fear in any japanese-involved project?

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Originally Posted by skarderud

I remember subaru 04-06 was totally f***ed up because of some F1 engineers and a blind thrust on computers. They didn't listen to the drivers at all, maybe something similiar is the fear in any japanese-involved project?

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There were a lot of reasons why Subaru struggled in WRC post 2003, but it was Prodrives making, not Japanese ways of working. The only Japanese influences on the poor results stem from small budgets (comparable to that of Citroën), and a boxer engine mounted way forward.

Prodrive has always been a great engineering company, and they punched way above their weight with all of their Subarus all the way to mid 2004. This with a car with a not perfect layout, and not the biggest budgets.
But new regulations limited Prodrives creativity when it came to battling the effects of Subarus quirky engine layout. That combined with a company with then big F1 ambitions, led to a lot of strange decisions.

With little rally experience the new engineers made cars that could not cross water streams like in Argentina, that lost their rear wing, and had very strange handling. The worst came last, and something wrong in the front geometry (to much anti dive?) made the Subaru S14 very difficult to handle on the limit, because it gave the driver almost no feedback.
I remember Petter being hugely frustrated by this.
But it was Prodrive, not the Japanese.

But Toyota has used a huge amount of money in both their first serious LeMans attack (with TTE) and the following F1-campaign, and have come up with measly results in comparison with the money spent. I think this is why TMG is left "out in the cold", and that they select hiring "outside" forces to run their rally campaign.

Tommi Mäkkinen off course has a big challenge ahead, but he has some incredible qualities that could be just what is needed to pip VW from the throne.

Regarding the car I am 100% confident that they will come up with a winner. Regarding the driver(s), well... Much more difficult. There is only one Ogier on the market, and he has married German.

Mäkkinen him self is a very good rally driver developer, but he needs the right subject with the right frame of mind. Lappi could be a guess, he seems to have the frame of mind, and he should be able to humble down in front of a four time world champion. Mäkkinen could also be the guy to bring back the mojo of Neuville (but if he is ready to take driving lessons, I am not so sure.)

Either way Toyotas comeback will bring excitement in to the sport, I only hope Citroën (DS) decides to stay, and drop the lame WTCC-racing with neither attracts PR or excitement.

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Originally Posted by Lundefaret

Tommi Mäkkinen off course has a big challenge ahead, but he has some incredible qualities that could be just what is needed to pip VW from the throne.

Regarding the car I am 100% confident that they will come up with a winner. Regarding the driver(s), well... Much more difficult. There is only one Ogier on the market, and he has married German.

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I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

Regarding Citroen. I hope they will go away and Abu Dhabi goes back to M-Sport. It's better to have 4 strong manufacturers than 5 if some of them are always trying to spend less money every year.

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Originally Posted by AL14

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

Regarding Citroen. I hope they will go away and Abu Dhabi goes back to M-Sport. It's better to have 4 strong manufacturers than 5 if some of them are always trying to spend less money every year.

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I do agree but not with the Citroen part... Every WRC team that leaves is a waste of mileage opportunies for young talent, there has to be a stepping stone, better from poor WRC team to top class WRC team than from WRC2, you need to adapt driving style and pace notes to high WRC level. In that given situation a young driver can be rated by the big teams to be interesting or a failure/don't bother.

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Originally Posted by AL14

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

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I think this is the big issue. Regardless of who actually runs the team and builds the cars, when you know in advance that you are entering the championship then it gives you at least an opportunity to try to steal an advantage on your rivals. Okay they didn't know the exact regulations but ideally everything would have been in place at this point - not a rushed project.

VW basically set the standard for how to enter the championship if you want to be successful. It looked like Toyota was following that trajectory until they decided to change direction. Okay if taking a step back allows them to go further in the future then I support it. I just hope they don't have to effectively take a year of development in 2017 when they are supposed to be competing.

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Originally Posted by AL14

I wouldn't be that confident. They have 18 months and VW is beginning testing the car soon. They had the advantage to focus fully on testing new cars and due to plan changes in the middle of the project they are already behind.
We should have read articles like "Toyota is testing new 2017 car" before VW and other manufacturers but now what we are reading is that Makkinen is desperately building a team and still don't know where all the work will be done and so on.
Not a good start for a team that want to beat the best car with the best driver.
BTW, I still hope they will bring excitement as you say, they can make a miracle in these 18 months and we all need it.

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What do you want them to be testing now? TMG has been testing the 2015 spec this year, but the 2017 regulations are not final yet and we got to know the draft of them just a few weeks ago. VW won't be ready till second quarter of 2016 with the 2017 spec car and TMR wants to finalize the 2017 spec Yaris by October with testing starting in March and it's not like they are starting from scratch.

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Originally Posted by Mariusz

What do you want them to be testing now? TMG has been testing the 2015 spec this year, but the 2017 regulations are not final yet and we got to know the draft of them just a few weeks ago. VW won't be ready till second quarter of 2016 with the 2017 spec car and TMR wants to finalize the 2017 spec Yaris by October with testing starting in March and it's not like they are starting from scratch.

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I want them to be ahead on timetables compared to other manufacturers considering they're working without having to think to championship. VW is going to test while Toyota has not a team yet. It's a fact. Remember that Toyota is not entering the sport like Hyundai, they're working on it for years.

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Originally Posted by Ounin

I do agree but not with the Citroen part... Every WRC team that leaves is a waste of mileage opportunies for young talent, there has to be a stepping stone, better from poor WRC team to top class WRC team than from WRC2, you need to adapt driving style and pace notes to high WRC level. In that given situation a young driver can be rated by the big teams to be interesting or a failure/don't bother.

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You have a point but still, 4 strong manufacturers with 3-4 cars each are a good number that leave space for talents to have opportunities. If they have to debut with a team where the only goal is survive year after year, trying to invest less money possible (and that means they will not invest money on talent as well!), I don't think it's a good start for their careers.

Camilli
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhjwcnyUlp8

They are testing 2017 specs? TMR team?

Can't fathom why this TMG car is still testing?

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Originally Posted by Simmi

Can't fathom why this TMG car is still testing?

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If I understood it right TMR will use much of the developed work on their car. A joint-venture was announced in some areas such as engine etz.

Would TMG do an R5 car? customer support etc while TMR does the wrc car?

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Originally Posted by Zeakiwi

Would TMG do an R5 car? customer support etc while TMR does the wrc car?

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Mäkinen will do R2 and R5

btw. Eamonn Boland´s new Subaru (in WRC Germany) is last Subaru which is built by TMR, next car out of Tommi´s farm is Toyota!!!

Despite the designation of Tommi Mäkinen as head of Toyota WRC project and its desire to build a new Yaris WRC in Finland, the TMG team seems to continue working on his side. In fact, it ends today a session of five days of testing on the ground in Andalusia. After his strong second place in the WRC2 Deustchland last weekend, Eric Camilli immediately took the path of southern Europe to pilot the prototype TMG Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday. Since yesterday it is Sebastian Lindholm has taken over.

While Tommi Mäkinen has not decided where he wants to locate its facilities to design and assemble the Toyota WRC that will be incurred in 2017, TMG appears to continue its work. The level of collaboration between the two entities do not appear to be yet fully defined. Tommi Mäkinen wants to design a new car within the Tommi Mäkinen Racing. For this, he recruited Michael Zotos as Technical Director. They had collaborated Subaru when Michael Zotos was operating engineer assigned to the car Tommi Mäkinen. Tommi Mäkinen has already contacted partners: Xtrac for transmission (as M-Sport Fiesta WRC for her or for the current Hyundai i20, but not the new one), the dampers for BOS (as Citroën). The engine and aero be entrusted to TMG. Cyrille Jourdan, the French engineer working on the TMG side project soulligne that these are the two main points of the new regulations in 2017 while Tommi Mäkinen argues precisely the fact to remake a self rather than using that of TMG because it is based on the current regulations! Wholesale at TMG, it was bad and Mäkinen wants to make his own way!

In addition to its responsibility, Tommi Mäkinen sees himself driving the Yaris WRC during the first tests. Mikko Hirvonen, a neighbor, should also incorporate the development agenda. Tommi Mäkinen was able to sell his project at the senior Toyota. His idea is to have a small agile team away from large structures such as TMG. He wants to quickly build two copies of a Yaris WRC following the 2017 regulations to a test in europe, the other on the other continents. But the Finnish announcement of ready facilities in June 2016. While the Toyoyta project seemed far ahead and on the right track, we have, right now, the impression that the team will hardly be in time to have a good self in Monte Carlo in 2017!

Opposite, we do not believe! Malcolm Wilson does not understand how Toyota can do without such resources in Germany. At Volkswagen, we have rolled a first proto behavior elements to the 2017 regulations!

Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/2015...suit-sa-route/

"Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

The key question

TM having fun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPzcq63zi98

http://s5.postimg.org/meuy2x7if/tmrs.jpg

http://www.worldrallyisfree.com/wp-c...sTmgEs1508.jpg

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Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira

"Malcolm Wilson: "I am amazed, what Toyota in Cologne, that's all that needs a team in motorsport. It is an incredible structure with the best wind tunnel. I do not understand how they can say no to that. "

The key question

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Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

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Originally Posted by nafpaktos

Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

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I do not think they want to spend money, that is why they chose a nobody to run their team in WRC, if they wanted to spend money they would do it the Hyundai and VW way.

Edit

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Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

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NO WAY,i think if they will challenge hyundai they must be happy.,what do you think?rallying has changed. Prodrive-subaru or ralliart-mitsubishi type cooperations are OVER.Why they dont see it????maybe they live to a parallel universe.

Toyota have invested alot in non fossil fuel/ low fossil fuel use vehicles.
http://www.autoblog.com/2015/08/12/f...arrive-europe/

Toyota have the Overdrive/ Hallspeed model for cross country. Toyota HQ probably hope their rally operation can be a similar - relatively small operations of enthusiasts with self developed specialist competition vehicles creating a good profile for Toyota brand product - Hilux.(even though Mini wins most of the big events)

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Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira

Our wishes of VW beater can be reality?

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I think this is the wrong thread.

Please Tommi, stop trolling us and bring that thing to Codies and driving that at Wales..

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Originally Posted by nafpaktos

Toyota has a lot of money and they want somehow to spend some.Exactly with what they did with their f1-joke program

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They do have money - but because of the F1 experience, they won't go down the same road of spending it unwisely. As we have seen from the WEC program; almost with one arm tied behind their back - but they did win the WEC last year. So the bean counters would argue that lots of spending isn't required. Sadly, this year they've fallen way behind.

Why people insist?Take that example:in 2011 and 2012 DS3 was considered leaps and bounds better than the Fiesta.But it has been proven after Loebs retirement that the differnce between the two cars was not so big as it seemed.WRC cars nowadays are nearly identical (same spec engine,same suspension and gearbox,similar electronics) so the real difference is made by the drivers and the set up mechanics.A top-class driver is able to win in all of WRC cars.So if Toyota manage to lure top-class drivers they are gonna be frontrunners for sure.

Why people insist?Take that example:in 2011 and 2012 DS3 was considered leaps and bounds better than the Fiesta.But it has been proven after Loebs retirement that the difference between the two cars was not so big as it seemed.WRC cars nowadays are nearly identical (same spec engine,same suspension and gearbox,similar electronics) so the real difference is made by the drivers and the set up mechanics.A top-class driver is able to win in all of WRC cars.So if Toyota manage to lure top-class drivers they are gonna be frontrunners for sure.