The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

No.
When Briatore dumped Trulli, Trulli was still ahead of Alonso.

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Yes, I was going to mention that Trulli got thrown out and then landed at Toyota.
Alonsita probably got upset and cried to Flavio.

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

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Originally Posted by fousto

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

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I'll support MS but I won't give up on supporting Ferrari. :)

so the is MS first Ferrari 2nd

ioan is easy, fousto, next year I will support MS, Jenson AND Ferrari! Go crazy, I will!

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Originally Posted by fousto

so the is MS first Ferrari 2nd

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Ferrari is 1st.
However you can still try to read between the one line I wrote and come up with some more fiction.

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Originally Posted by fousto

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

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Ferrari One-Two with Michael 3rd would be the ideal result.....but if Michael did win, we'd know Ferrari had been beaten by the greatest driver in the history of the sport, so that wouldn't be as hard to take as losing to a lucky Canadian who was flattered by an FW19, for example.

Just where does Michael stand in the hearts of the dyed in the wool Tifoso ?

Luca's recent comments brand him a traitor to the marque .


Is there a chance that Michael isn't really going to Merc , as everyone thinks ?
Could this be the ultimate burn for the Mercedes camp , where Schumacher makes all the right noises about changing teams , and then , at the last moment , turns out not to be a turn-coat , and pulls the rug from beneath them ?
Is the twin just the same guy , about to remove the mask ?

Seeing all the hype around this , wouldn't this be the coup of the century , if Michael held silly season for ransom like this , just for the sake of screwing up Ferrari's opponents ?

If this is what transpires , no Tifoso need reply to the first question in my post . All's fair in love and F1 .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Just where does Michael stand in the hearts of the dyed in the wool Tifoso ?

Luca's recent comments brand him a traitor to the marque .


Is there a chance that Michael isn't really going to Merc , as everyone thinks ?
Could this be the ultimate burn for the Mercedes camp , where Schumacher makes all the right noises about changing teams , and then , at the last moment , turns out not to be a turn-coat , and pulls the rug from beneath them ?
Is the twin just the same guy , about to remove the mask ?

Seeing all the hype around this , wouldn't this be the coup of the century , if Michael held silly season for ransom like this , just for the sake of screwing up Ferrari's opponents ?

If this is what transpires , no Tifoso need reply to the first question in my post . All's fair in love and F1 .

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Michael Schumacher is not Palpatine. Besides, he would be able to screw only Brawn Mercedes. The McLaren seems very competitive for next year.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Just where does Michael stand in the hearts of the dyed in the wool Tifoso ?

Luca's recent comments brand him a traitor to the marque .


Is there a chance that Michael isn't really going to Merc , as everyone thinks ?
Could this be the ultimate burn for the Mercedes camp , where Schumacher makes all the right noises about changing teams , and then , at the last moment , turns out not to be a turn-coat , and pulls the rug from beneath them ?
Is the twin just the same guy , about to remove the mask ?

Seeing all the hype around this , wouldn't this be the coup of the century , if Michael held silly season for ransom like this , just for the sake of screwing up Ferrari's opponents ?

If this is what transpires , no Tifoso need reply to the first question in my post . All's fair in love and F1 .

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Michael has/should have a special place in every Ferrari fans heart for what he did for the Ferrari team.

While Luca is a bit of d!ckhead with a big ego and I find his hiring of Italians in the key positions in the team a very bad move, I believe that Michael is not the kind of person who would do to Ross Brawn something like that.

And while we are talking about Ross Brawn, it is also Luca's fault that Ross Brawn is the Mercedes F1 team boss and not the Ferrari F1 team boss right now.

During his sabbatical year Brawn asked for the team boss position but Luca preferred to give it too Domenicali, who is a nice person but not team boss material.

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Originally Posted by fousto

I want to know if ioan and walker are going to jump to the Merc camp with the Chin???

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I dislike the current Ferrari team immensly, with the exception of Massa of course. The behaviour of LDM in ousting Brawn, Todt, Schumacher and Kimi has been idiotic.

If Schumacher comes back, then I will support Mercedes for sure. Even without Schumacher, I would quite like Mercedes.

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Originally Posted by henners88

The jury is still out on that one, but I admire your sanguine attitude.. :p

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Until somebody beats his records, then the facts speak for themselves.

7 World titles & 92 Grand Prix wins....those are facts.

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Michael has/should have a special place in every Ferrari fans heart for what he did for the Ferrari team.

While Luca is a bit of d!ckhead with a big ego and I find his hiring of Italians in the key positions in the team a very bad move, I believe that Michael is not the kind of person who would do to Ross Brawn something like that.

And while we are talking about Ross Brawn, it is also Luca's fault that Ross Brawn is the Mercedes F1 team boss and not the Ferrari F1 team boss right now.

During his sabbatical year Brawn asked for the team boss position but Luca preferred to give it too Domenicali, who is a nice person but not team boss material.

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You're right that Luca is a dick .
He spat on a friend of mine .

But , isn't he right in saying that Michael , who seemed red to the core , is now Michael the traitor ?

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Originally Posted by henners88

The jury is still out on that one, but I admire your sanguine attitude.. :p

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What jury?!
Oh I see, you've been chewing those mushrooms again. Please continue, don't bother with us bad dreams.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Quantity has never been something I have used to judge someones greatness.

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All those with little to show say this! :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

You're right that Luca is a dick .
He spat on a friend of mine .

But , isn't he right in saying that Michael , who seemed red to the core , is now Michael the traitor ?

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No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

7 World titles & 92 Grand Prix wins....those are facts.

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

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Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

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Originally Posted by ioan

No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

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Yes. Pierro also said that Michael would be like a betrayer as he said that Ferrari was family to him before. But was Ferrari a good family, Pierro?

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

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Gary, my esteemed friend, what does integrity win?

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

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Rubens Barrichello has raced in more F1 races than anyone. That makes him the greatest :p

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Rubens Barrichello has raced in more F1 races than anyone. That makes him the greatest :p

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Ah, but Rubens forgot that he needed to win more of them.

All his greater number of races makes him is the man who lost most GP's.

He took that record from...now, who was it?...oh, yes, your mate.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

All his greater number of races makes him is the man who lost most GP's.

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So he's the greatest in two categories, just like Michael :D

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Originally Posted by tamburello

7 World titles & 92 Grand Prix wins....those are facts.

Nobody has a greater number, a fact, therefore nobody has achieved a greater number, a fact.

Which, according to the dictionary definition, means Michael is the greatest.

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Is Ryan Giggs the greatest player in the history of English football? I'd say that was up-for-debate, despite him having won more than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

So he's the greatest in two categories, just like Michael :D

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Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.

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Originally Posted by BeansBeansBeans

Is Ryan Giggs the greatest player in the history of English football? I'd say that was up-for-debate, despite him having won more than anyone else.

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He has won more than anybody else, and the object of the game is to win.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Ryan Giggs is indeed fast becoming the most decorated player in the history of football so yes he is the greatest player in the history of the game... According to Tamb :p

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When the object of the sport is anything other than winning, you may have a point.

Until then, you don't.

That is a fact.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Gary, my esteemed friend, what does integrity win?

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Not a stinking thing I am afraid. But I was really trying to suss out this "dictionary definition" of greatness. Curious as to what dictionary and/or context. Like I said if it was limited only to on track performance, then without a doubt MS fills the bill. But if the definition extends beyond that scope, well we gotta talk my friend.

Gary

P.S. Happy holidays tamburello!

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Does integrity count in the definition of greatness are are we limited to just stats? If it is stats alone I am in full agreement. If not, then...

Gary

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Those without sins should cast the first stone!, or something along those lines (I only heard it in the Christmas movies, so please forgive me if it's wrong).

Meaning that there weren't many saints between those F1 WDCs.

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Originally Posted by F1boat

Yes. Pierro also said that Michael would be like a betrayer as he said that Ferrari was family to him before. But was Ferrari a good family, Pierro?

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Depends about which Ferrari we talk.
The Ferrari of Todt, Brawn, Byrne were a great family to MS and he stayed loyal to them.

I believe that the fans, the mechanics and engineers love MS no matter what LdM of Pietro might say.

I for one I'm attracted by Ferrari as a manufacturer of automotive art and don't give a damn about who's at the helm as long as the spirit lives on.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm glad you have confirmed its open to interpretation... ;)

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Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

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Amen.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

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Fangio won 24 times from 51 starts which is a winning percentage of 47.06% and therefore better than Schumacher and might have been better still if it weren't for the coldest numbers in history.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Thats great but it is OK for me to have my opinion isn't it? That is why we're here or have I missed something? I'm not trying to be funny but people like to lay it on the line when they have a view, but shoot down and take the p!ss out of others when they express theirs.

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:up: well said i agree with this statement.

however, to much extent I agree with what Ioan says about going by numbers. However, this doesnt always tell the FULL story and sometimes you have to look further than figures to see a drivers brilliance or what have you.

IMO the top 4 drivers - Michael, Alain, Juan and Ayrton, are so good and great that it is impossible to say who is the best, but I have witnessed the majesty of Michael, so I say Michael. However, I am aware that this is only an opinion...

Michael who?
:arrows:
ok ok I'm gone :p :
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

p.s. I just realised: now Michael's back it's time to change the boo hoo sig I put up for ioan (:wave :) so many years ago :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

No he isn't right. Luca is the one who badly treated the ones who made Ferrari into the powerhouse we all witnessed, so he has no right to call others traitors.

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This is complicated , this being a Tifoso .

Do I have this right ?
Ferrari winning is best , even though Luca wins and Michael loses .
Ferrari losing to Michael , even though driving for Mercedes , is good , too , because Michael brought so much glory to Ferrari , and he is racing against Luca , who has done so much damage to Ferrari .

Regardless of what Luca says , is Michael not now the enemy , worthy somewhat of some derision , for taking the secrets of the winning Scuderia to a rival ?

After all , should we expect him to feel compassion for the red team in the race , or should we expect the same clinical lack thereof in his typical quest for the win ?




In no way am I trying to be argumentative .
In fact , I am truly interested in how you Tifosi read all this .
It's going to be wierd for you all .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

This is complicated , this being a Tifoso .

Do I have this right ?
Ferrari winning is best , even though Luca wins and Michael loses .
Ferrari losing to Michael , even though driving for Mercedes , is good , too , because Michael brought so much glory to Ferrari , and he is racing against Luca , who has done so much damage to Ferrari .

Regardless of what Luca says , is Michael not now the enemy , worthy somewhat of some derision , for taking the secrets of the winning Scuderia to a rival ?

After all , should we expect him to feel compassion for the red team in the race , or should we expect the same clinical lack thereof in his typical quest for the win ?




In no way am I trying to be argumentative .
In fact , I am truly interested in how you Tifosi read all this .
It's going to be wierd for you all .

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Baggy, I'm not living in a world with enemies. And I can learn to like people whom prove to be worth it.

I didn't like MS before 1996, but his dedication won me over.
I didn't like Alonso but his season with McLaren changed a lot as he proved that he can be mature enough to do his job in a hostile environement.
I didn't like Hamilton until half way through 2009, but he proved that he is a very good driver and I respect him for that.

And the list is long.

I like Ferrari even though I despise LdM, simply because LdM is not Ferrari, not the Ferrari I learned to appreciate.

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Living in a world of black and white is tiresome and I'm not interested in it. :)

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Er, which is it? :confused:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Everything is open to interpretation, especially around here. That's why I go by the numbers, no interpretation, no subjectivity, cold numbers.

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No offence but you go by the numbers when it suits you. When we were arguing about Kimi/Massa a while back you just stated that Massa beat Kimi without looking into the matter, and when it was proven that they scored about the same number of points per finished race in their three years together at Ferrari, you just moved on and ignored the whole thing. But anyway we all do that but at least some of us don't pretend to be objective.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.

He has won more than anybody else, and the object of the game is to win.

When the object of the sport is anything other than winning, you may have a point.

Until then, you don't.

That is a fact.

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I'd say that if the numbers place Ryan Giggs and Phil Neal as the two greatest players in English football history, it proves that the numbers can't be totally relied upon.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Two categories that are meaningless, much like your post.

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I wouldn't consider longevity to be meaningless. Rubens would not be in F1 now if his contribution to the teams he has raced for was not valued. Equally I wouldn't argue for a second that Rubens was the greatest F1 driver that has ever lived.

Greatness is not something that can be defined entirely by facts. The argument in favour of a driver being considered one of the "greats" can certainly be supported by numbers and MS certainly has those in his favour, but given that "greatness" is largely a matter of opinion then the numbers are just one of many factors.

There are sportsmen & women who are generally recognised to be the greatest in their field, but even among those greats there is room for debate and discussion.