...the FIA's word is final.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Well...that is...depending on which FIA official is asked :p
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...the FIA's word is final.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Well...that is...depending on which FIA official is asked :p
Just something I thought about...Massa was released to early..drove next to Sutil..so Fia says...Not allowed...penalty....even if it was just a fine....In Canada..i see Kimi ending up next to and on the left side of Robert when leaving the pit...so wasn't he also released to early? did he ever got a penalty ? Even if it was just a fine like in Valencia ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
well that's what I am trying to explain here..where's the logic ? and I will try to find some samples where drivers got punished...Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Schumacher a couple of years back is 1...and i know..it's not exactly the same..but it was also "just" a pitstop incident..and in this case not even any other team was involved..Hungary last year....Fernando....FIA decides to hand out a penalty...Why they not just gave the team a fine either ?
Arrows, you watched F1 for so many years, you know it full well that it's up to the stewards to hand out a penalty, even the ones related to technical issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1
The FIA race and technical directors are there to insure the show goes on, not to decide what was wrong or right on the track. They only note what happens and if they consider it necessary they refer it to the stewards, but they do not have decision powers.
The stewards decide based on the evidence presented to them if there is a guilty entity and what the penalty will be.
It's been like this for so many years, and I think it will stay like this from now on too, simply because it's the right solution.
Also these stewards are independent of the FIA unlike the technical and race directors. So the people saying that it's the FIA's inconsistency are clearly talking rubbish.
What? Where did MS go down the pitlane alongside another car and there was a penalty?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Same question for the case in which you are talking about Alonso.
Year and race required, as I'd like to verify the facts.
Because if it depends on the team and not the driver they can't hand out a drive through to the driver, so they fine the team, or deduct a quantity of their championship points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
If it's the driver's fault, than he will get a drive through, a stop and go or a time penalty.
You really need to watch more F1 and try to understand what, when and why happens.
than you should write autosport.com as they put in wrong in there headlineQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70440
I'll let you do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
You can quote me on it however, if you want to.
They are appointed by the FIA to do this for the week end, but are not on contract with the FIA for it and they also can refuse doing it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I did say team no ? and I was just wondering why ferrari got a fine in valencia and why they did not got one in Canada....as it looks they also released Kimi to early..just like they did with massa in valencia..How else you explain Kimi ended up next to and on the left of Robert ?
well they might be so called "independant" but in the end it is FIA who hands out there licenses to be a steward...Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Because in Canada it was not dangerous at all given that the pit lane is 3 times larger?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Well you and I as drivers also pay to the FIA and get some kind of membership in return, does this make us biased towards the FIA?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Hamilton himself get's his license to drive an F1 car directly from the FIA. So what?
Ioan, in search of resolution to this dispute, I looked up the relevant regulations. Article 154 of the 2008 International Sporting Code says:Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
"A fine may be inflicted on any competitor, and also on any driver, assistant or passenger, who does not comply with the requirements of any Regulations or with any instruction of the officials of the meeting (see Article 132)."
Perhaps they mean 'competitor' to mean 'constructor', in the case of F1. As you can see, however, this does not exclude the possibility of Massa being fined (and possibly Ferrari paying the fine for him).
I wish we could see the original Steward's decision. It's starting to worry me now :D
I think it would be very difficult to FIA to changes the decision now - there are so much details which tells that stewards make (after on further consideration) a right thing when they gave Lewis 25 second penalty -- if English media then like it or not.
I'm sure it wasn't easy decision but they had not possible to let things like that go past, because you must decide with respect and with regarding to the rules. There is now other way - you can’t start to think what some other stewards made in some other cases there you don't have any accurate knowledge what really happened... i must say I'm a bit disappointed to Niki Lauda - i think he should know better.. than to making this bigger than they are – for me this is a storm in a teacup .. :)
so what ? If FIA decides to take away anyones license..they no longer can race at events ruled by FIA..either can stewards...what does that mean ? They are the boss after all no ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
than why there is this white line ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Here you go! ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicpanda
They say the competitor is named Ferrari Scuderia Marlboro.
http://www.fia.com/europegp/document...ocument_41.pdf
For delimitation of the pit box area?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Sure, but they can't do so without a serious reason. Exactly like how the police can't take away your driving license without a reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
so drivers can..when entering or leaving the pitlane..drive where ever they want..if it is...in your opinion just mend as a delimitation ?Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
well ok..but they are the ones who decide the rules...so they are the ones you have to listen to..so stewards are not really that independant as you made it sound !Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
The way I see it: if a car drives in boxes side of the line and has an incident with one of the mechanics than it's the driver's fault, however if the incident takes place on the other side of the white strip than it's the mechanics fault.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
I'm pretty sure that the cars have the right to drive on both sides of that white strip, otherwise I don't see how they could enter and exit their boxes and garages.
All right Ioan, I conceed that you might just have something there when you say that they fined Ferrari.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
I told you that the stewards can also refuse to do it, as they are people who have other jobs (engineer, doctor, lawyer and so on), their main occupation not being a race steward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
On the other hand if the FIA revokes a driver's license than it's game over for him, cause driving a race car is their profession.
No need for that, I'm happy enough with having a civilized discussion without any of the usual turn-offs.Quote:
Originally Posted by cosmicpanda
You were totally entitled to your opinion based on the article you read on pitpass.com.
no, not dangerous at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
no, three cars didn't crash into each other as a result of it, did they?
or was i dreaming?
you either have a law against releasing a car into the path of another car or you don't. you don't have liberal and less-liberal interpretations depending on the pitlane. there's one drive-thru lane and that's it.
if you extrapolate that, then ferrari attempted to gain an advantage by sending kimi out into kubica's path, kimi attempted to gain an advantage by refusing to yield when he was clearly out of position.
and, if they'd reached the red light (the cause of which has still yet to be explained by the race stewards or the FIA) one after the other instead of side-by-side, the dozers hamilton and rosberg would have had somewhere to go instead of having one of the most comical crashes in f1 history.
there is a difference between the massa and canadian incidents, i agree.
the difference is the massa one was a potentially dangerous situation with a lapped car, while the raikkonen one was an ultimately dangerous situation where they tried to eke an advantage for the race lead.
bugger all to do with the pit width, though.
As a result of it?! Or as a result of a certain driver not paying attention to where his car was going?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
Don't know about dreaming, but you were definitely asleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsXs5y...eature=related
"I'm afraid that's all down to the two young guys, Hamilton & Rosberg, and their teams for not giving them a heads-up about the red light"
Martin Brundle, Canada, 2008
Cars on the pit driving lane have right-of-way over cars in, and coming out of, the pit stall..Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
They don't talk anywhere about 2 or 3 pit driving lanes..Just one...so kimi should have backed of
in essence this is exactly the same situation as with Massa..I don't see much difference to be honnest...
like I said "Cars on the pit driving lane have right-of-way over cars in, and coming out of, the pit stall"Quote:
Originally Posted by tamburello
if you look at the video..kimi even positions his car in front of robert at the exit of the pit lane....at the red light...just before Lewis hits him !
And I agree with you, there was no difference, and this makes the penalty in the later case a bit weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Have to go now. See you all.
We're going around in circles Ioan, where were you when drivers cut chicanes and let cars past but didn't go back enough, and even overtook after getting slipsteam? I don't recall you going on about that. Presumably because its never been penalised in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
Well, slowing down right behind Sutil to waiting for him to pass is slightly quicker. But whether or not he gained a time advantage is not the case, its fact that both incidents are penalised with a 25s time penalty / drive through.
Both were found guilty of their individual incidents, neither gained a sporting advantage - and different penalties.
Are you actually claiming that the Stewards have been consistant?
I'm sorry but that's the biggest load of rubbish ever......Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickey T
Why are people suddenly latching onto this "gaining an advantage" phrase?
Surely if we're to be anal (you are being INCREDIBLY anal about it!) then Lewis should get a penalty for qualifying first as this gave him an advantage in the race.
It's not the fact that an advantage is gained that makes something illegal..... it's HOW the advantage is gained. Did Kimi gain advantage by shortcutting the track? No. Was his car illegal in any way? No. In an ideal world the cars would slot in neatly behind each other but sending a car out but it's not that easy when your car is stationary and the other is doing 80kph down the pit lane. The cars didn't travel down the whole length of the pitlane and they didn't go past the occupied garages either. It wasn't like there were any near misses with other cars or people jumping out of the way or anything so I fail to see how it's dangerous. I was driving down a road today doing about the same speed right next to another car. Danger level? Very low....
I agree that if Kimi wasn't alongside it might not have happened but the only causes of the incident were Lewis and Nico making a silly mistake. It was the F1 equivalent to a fender bender and no one blames the guy stopped at the lights who they crash into....... well at least not in the real world :)
You just made that up :) Why would a car doing 80kph need to have right of way over a car slowing down to enter a pitbox?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
If you look at this clip you see ... Lewis .... in a kart clipping a kerb!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DDjRdi5zv-w
than what's the reason Ferrari got a fine in valencia anyway ? if by some on here..cars are allowed to drive next to each other in the pits...see canada...cars that are on the pit driving lane have no right of way...etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
Kimi clearly gained advantages at the first corner goin of track...Even if it was on the outside..Not trying to break at all to make the corner in a proper way....Rules they showed me here not make a difference between in and/or outside of a corner !Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
God how many more times do I have to repeat myself..seems some are just blind for this...Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel
YES...Kimi clearly gained advantages at la source corner...goin of track...Even if it was on the outside..Not trying to brake at all to make the corner in a proper way....if he would have..he would never been that fast goin down Eau Rouge and passing Massa a little later...
And Rules that have been shown to me on here not make a difference between in and/or outside of a corner !
You should call Ron , because , shouldn't he be protesting this ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tonieke
Oh...look....it's not the first time the Hamilton did it:
http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=TDh1Iy...eature=related
Pat Symonds's view is worth a read:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/70457
Oh, and the Official F1 site's video is pretty darn good too. It captures the excitement and drama of a superb race, as well as the damp squib ending that spoilt it all.