Yeah, you're right. I'll give that ignore button to someone who needs it really really bad.
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Yeah, you're right. I'll give that ignore button to someone who needs it really really bad.
heelntoe,Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
This is a great thread, but one name that’s being left out is Mazda. How do you see them factoring into the equation? As I’m sure you’re aware, Mazda’s basically footing the bill for the media buys, so the question comes up: why?
Here’s what I’m looking at and wondering if CCWS’ schedule isn’t beginning/attempting to mirror it, despite all the idiocy that appears to be going on.
Mazda’s FY2006 Retail Unit Sales by Region
North America: 380K
Europe: 301K
Japan: 260K
China: 129K
Other: 230K
Global Sales Volume: 1,301K
I think most would agree that Mazda is fully capable of keeping CC afloat if they wanted to, so the real question, as it appears to me, is: do they want to?
The problem I see with them abandoning CCWS is what other vehicle is available to activate their brand with motorsports? As bad as CC is domestically, it still dwarfs the exposure they would generate simply through a few cars in Speed WC, GA, Star Mazda and ALMS - and that’s just in NA.
I can see Honda settling on the IRL and Toyota on NASCAR here in the states, but they’re also running F1, Mazda isn’t. So it’s not appearing to be a question of “if” they would abandon CCWS - but where would they go?
However, a version of CCWS operating to it’s full potential, would seem to be an ideal scenario for Mazda to activate their brand both domestically and globally - and that’s why I’m having a hard time imagining they’ll just let it all crumble. To me it’s too perfect a fit to ignore and like I said, I can't see leaving Mazda out of the discussion.
-John
Dr. Jack: What the h--- are you doing on this forum? You make far too much sense to be on here. Just kidding, there are a lot of very good posts by others.
The Capt. as dictator. He is just about the only one in OWR who could run things and keep the respect needed. He would have to have the authority to overrule the owners. He also might have to divest himself of his team to avoid conflict of interest squawks.
By the way, do not forget Roger was also a very good racing driver himself so he knows that end of things too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Mark, as one of the "pro-IRL guys" who has been on the sharp end of your attacks (always in good nature, of course), I can appreciate your viewpoints even when I disagree with you on most occasions. Its always enjoyable to read your take...even when it "ruffles a few feathers" around here.
Shoot Mark is the only one here I can usually agree with.
One question I have though relates to the suggestion that NHL/HL/or H will move to the IRL next year. If I'm not mistaken, Carl Haas has distribution rights to Panos racing parts, and although not in the Champ Car ownership chain, he stands to lose considerably if he cannot sell parts to Champ Car. Now Panos races in plenty of other series, but I would think the DP01 represents a pretty good source of cashflow to Haas and moving to the IRL just wouldn't make sense.
However, just pulling this out of my a** if there were a deal to allow the DP01 or similar Panos chassis to run the IRL, then it might make more sense to Hass and other team owners to defect. And in my opinion if this happens, Champ Car will die. Just gas for thought...
John- Let's say, for just a second, that the CCWS is actually up against it and the owners choose not to answer the bell for 2008.Quote:
Originally Posted by john2112
To be very honest, the single most capible, most organized and most resourceful administrator in NAOWR today, IMO, is Vickie O'Conner.
I have no doubt that if CCWS was to go under that she could take the Mazda Atlantic series and pull it into stand-alone mode, probably as a major undercard support series to ALMS or GA, or maybe even the IRL. For that matter, maybe even all three!
I could actually see her parlay that series into one that would give Mazda everything they wanted in terms of American exposure.
That could be the opportunity for Mazda to retain their marketing exposure - especially if they can work relationships with other series to enhance their TV exposure. The networks may also be interested in the deal because they would know that, with the right TV package, Mazda could be a major advertising player through that outlet. Mazda, on the other hand, is able to avoid the political infighting we see today with the two major open wheel series (as they pretty much have to this point).
Not at all a prediction, just a thought about what might be ahead. I have a lot of faith in the MA series...to borrow a phrase..."it just seems like a series that is too good to let die" if CCWS goes away, and I think Vickie is respected enough throughout the motorsports industry that she would find another dance partner to help Mazda achieve its goals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
Hmmmm, can't wait for next week.
tbyars,Quote:
Originally Posted by tbyars
I made a post on another forum that kind of goes along with your thinking and it seems to be in harmony with Dr. Jack's theme of "what next" so I'll just paste it here.
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Putting aside all the "my side is better than yours" arguments, I've been thinking about something that's come up in few other threads in one manner or another. The first part seems to have more to do with the actual racing part and the second more with the economics involved.
As to the racing, it came up recently about how entertaining the action in the Star Mazda series is. Personally, I think it's true and I'd also say that the racing in CC Atlantic is equally so, along with the few GP2 races and Indy Pro Series races I've seen. My main point is the "feeder" series' seem to produce a better show than the "headline" series they support.
My thoughts are, and I might be off on this, but I'm thinking the technology creep that began in the late '70's has really had a profound effect on the health of AOWR. It's probably not so much the technology as much as the increases in speeds that resulted from it. And NASCAR made a pretty big move with the restrictor plates to at least head off the speed part of the technology creep.
During the same time that NASCAR was trying to slow their cars down, AOWR became intoxicated with speed. "It's a new track record," became the goal, and I think the actual "racing" part began to suffer because of it. However, flush with money from the manufactures and sponsors, the speeds and technology to reach them was pretty much left unchecked, which was fine until the money dried up.
I'll get back to the money side in a minute, but it's the increase in speed that seems a little more important. And I'm not going to deny the attraction to the 1,000 hp cars and the +230mph speeds, that was going on in the '90's. But with all that "awe" going on, there was a certain amount of "raw" that was lost which was present in the late '70's and early '80's.
I've just googled some of this stuff so if it's off, don't flay me over it. But as far as speed goes:
-In his '78 F1 winning season, Mario Andretti qualified his Lotus on the pole at the U.S. Grand Prix on the long course at Watkins Glen with a time of 1:38. In contrast the Indy Pro Series track record on the same course is: 1:37.
-The qualifying speed for the F1 race at Monza in '78 was 1:37. The qualifying speed for the GP2 cars on the slower course was 1:30.
-A.J. Foyt qualified 5th and finished 2nd in the '78 Indy 500 with a qualifying speed of 189mph. The pole for the Indy Pro Series race at Indy this year was 188mph.
My point really isn't so much the speed, but the cost of that speed. No matter how I look at it, AOWR is living beyond it's means. I could go on and on comparing it to it's glory days, or contrasting it against NASCAR, but why? That's the past and what could have been. But in the here and now…
I'm hearing you can run a competitive CC Atlantic team for $1M+ a year. That's a car that ran a 1:58 at Road America this year, compared to the CART '83 pole of 1:57.
So what would we be losing if CC Atlantic's, Indy Pro Series or maybe something along the lines of GP2 cars were the pinnacle of AOWR? Ego and speed mainly. I think most of the ego part would be from who we, as AOWR were, and partly compared to the F1 crowd. But the money's simply not there to be who we were, and it's certainly not there to pursue what the F1 teams spend.
Then we're left with the speed issue, which I'll get to shortly, but the point of this whole rambling post is to remove the "OW" part from the equation of "rethinking AOWR," and then it's really just American Racing. And at least for the mental exercise, if we stop comparing one OW racing series to another along with making comparisons to it's past or trying to compete with what's going on in Europe, and bring the debate around to competing for the American Racing market - I think OWR could do okay.
If it's just about the speed, a CC Atlantic car is quicker than a Nextel Cup car. And if it's about the racing, like I said earlier, these feeder series put on a pretty good show. So I think the real problem facing AOWR is more internal than external: it's competing either with itself, it's past, or F1. But I think the real competition is the "present" American Racing scene, and that's NASCAR.
So if by some miracle, the heads of the premier series of the IRL and CCWS were chopped off, and all that money was then put into their feeder series' - we'd have two AOWR series with 40+ car fields; putting on a better show than NASCAR; and also being faster than NASCAR.
Like I said in the title, "rethinking AOWR," I'm wondering if we're competing against what we shouldn't be competing against, and not competing for the market (American Racing) we should be. My point with all this being: I think we (OWR) have a better "racing" product than NASCAR does; and all AOWR's means need to be sacrificed to that end.
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To sum it up, I think one of the major liabilities with AOWR has very little to do with what they're doing and more with how they see themselves. There's a certain amount of prestige associated with its past, that the participants across the board have a hard time letting go of, and I believe that's contributed more to its current state than any other single factor.
I don't have a problem with the big dreams, but there's a difference between starting from the top and working your way up to it. So whether it's the IRL trying to be what they were, or CCWS trying to be bigger than they are, the common denominator in both cases is not laying the foundation to support the ideal they see themselves as.
In my opinion both NASCAR and F1 are where they are today because of the foundation they laid in the past, and I can see Mazda following a similar path. Starting with the original Formula Mazda, to the current Pro FM, and now into the Atlantics, each successive level was fully supported by the preceding one. And from the drivers side:
-Successful karters will participate in a full season of the BFGoodrich Skip Barber National Presented by Mazda.
-The Skip Barber National Champion will be racing in the Star Mazda Championship Presented by Goodyear.
-The Star Mazda Champion will be racing in the Cooper Tires Presents the Champ Car Atlantic Series Powered by Mazda.
So all in all, I'm seeing two contrasting views: one of Mazda building the foundation for AOWR from the ground up and the other, the old guard trying to prop up the ruins of the past.
-John
John, excellent post and great ideas. The research about speeds is particularly enlightening.
Great post John.Quote:
Originally Posted by john2112
To add to this, i would like to point out that the gp2-car is actually roughly as fast as the lola champcar was, while costs are between $1.0-$1.5 million for 11 races.
I recently posted something on another website regarding the speed differences between GP2 and the Lola-champcar.
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Champcar's fastest lap in montreal was 109.8% (2004), 109.79% (2005) and 108.55% (2006) of the fastest race lap in F1 in the same year.
Gp2's fastest lap was 110.55% (Silverstone), 111.66% (Imola) and 109.71% (Hockenheim) compared to F1's fastest lap @ the same event in 2006.
I for one don't believe the hardcore fans will notice this 1 to 3% difference. And don't even start on the general audience.
The point is that champcar could have gone for a technical package that is to the eye as fast as the lola-package and in terms of actual speed 1 - 3 % of the pace. In terms of money gp2-championship winning ART-team ran on a budget of 2.5 million euro for 2 cars, which equals +- $1.5 million for 1 car for 11 races. A midpack team should be able to run for as low as $1 million.
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The weird thing is that whenever i propose such a formula everybody starts to talk about champcar not being a junior serie and that it would be bad for it's image. All i'm thinking is a) 17 cars, teamsupport, no sponsors and no driver stability due to lack of budget harms the serie way more and b) these cars are as fast as the lola's (well, at least you can't spot the 1-3% difference without a stopwatch). And the people who follow the gp2 championship know that it offers some of the best racing seen in a long time.
Imo it has exactly to do with what you are saying: Ego. Our car needs to be the fastest. And who cares that nobody has the money to run it.