FIA sends spy case to Court of Appeal

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Although, had Mclaren said "We can't accept this because what you are doing is criminal and this is better handled by the FIA", it would have saved an awful lot of suspicion.

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Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

The fact that they happily accepted the information and used it in the way the did, knowing it had come from a criminal source, rather does shoot them in the foot when it comes to their integrity.

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Forgive me if I'm being slow on the uptake, but how exactly did they use it? This is what we have seen no evidence of thus far.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

The FIA did not hear Ferrari's argument.

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So this is a pack of lies then?:

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I again ask you to look at the real facts, which are that Ferrari fully participated in the hearing before the Council.
First, Ferrari submitted a lengthy, albeit grossly misleading, memorandum dated 16th July 2007 along with supporting documents which together totalled 118 pages.
Ferrari did not send McLaren the memorandum. The memorandum was circulated to the Council on the 20 July. McLaren did not see it until two days before the hearing and it was only then that we were able to correct its grossly inaccurate contents.
In the meantime, the misleading Ferrari memorandum or sections of it appear to have been leaked to the Italian press as much of the Italian press reports echo elements of that memorandum.
In addition to this Ferrari, who were represented by lawyers, were given several opportunities by the FIA President to ask questions and make submissions throughout the hearing. Mr Todt also gave evidence.
It was clear that the FIA President afforded Ferrari every opportunity to be heard in order to ensure that all relevant matters were heard by the WMSC. Indeed, at the very end of the proceeding, Ferrari intervened with a request to make further closing comments. Ferrari's request was permitted and their lawyer proceeded to make further detailed closing comments at some length.

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61260

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Forgive me if I'm being slow on the uptake, but how exactly did they use it? This is what we have seen no evidence of thus far.

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They (Mclaren) asked the FIA for clarification on Ferrari's floor.

That's very suspicious, given the events that have unfolded since. Admittedly, they were within their rights to ask for clarification, but the trail of evidence is that they recieved the email in March and then asked for clarification.

Had they asked for clarification when the Ferrari first appeared with it's sprung floor gadget, in February, there would be no evidence.

The very fact that this was not the time-scale of events supports Ferrari's claim.

Had the FIA independently investigated the Ferrari floor after recieving a whistle-blowing email, then there would be no ill-feeling from Ferrari towards Mclaren (well, not regarding the email anyway.......admittedly there would be from the last 10 years).

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

So this is a pack of lies then?:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/61260

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Well, it's written by the same Ron Dennis who the FIA didn't believe in Hungary at the weekend, who is the same Ron Dennis who has publically stated an outright lie that the Ferrari was illegal in Melbourne.

It certainly doesn't come from an objective and reliable source.

Unless your biased.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

...knowing it had come from a criminal source...

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Whistleblower does not = criminal. One of the central tennants of whistleblowing is confidentiality.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Whistleblower does not = criminal. One of the central tennants of whistleblowing is confidentiality.

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Tell that to a judge.

It is only whistle-blowing if it is sent to the correct and relevant authorities.

Contacting the opposition with information from your company is not whistle-blowing, it is a criminal act.

You better check the small print of your own employment contract.

I find it incredulous that a knowledgable man doesn't know that.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

They (Mclaren) asked the FIA for clarification on Ferrari's floor.

That's very suspicious, given the events that have unfolded since. Admittedly, they were within their rights to ask for clarification, but the trail of evidence is that they recieved the email in March and then asked for clarification.

Had they asked for clarification when the Ferrari first appeared with it's sprung floor gadget, in February, there would be no evidence.

The very fact that this was not the time-scale of events supports Ferrari's claim.

Had the FIA independently investigated the Ferrari floor after recieving a whistle-blowing email, then there would be no ill-feeling from Ferrari towards Mclaren (well, not regarding the email anyway.......admittedly there would be from the last 10 years).

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If, then, this is all to do with the floor rather than McLaren gaining some sort of performance, strategy or operational advantage through reading the documents, I can't help but feel that the whole thing is being blown out of all proportion to a degree. It is perfectly feasible that people within F1 already knew about the Ferrari floor; these things don't have a habit of remaining secret for long, even when there aren't leaked documents involved.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I read all that ronspeak complete with spinning and BS! :p :



You didn't seem to be that understanding when Ferrari complained about the verdict, but you understand Ron's attacks and drivel! :rolleyes:



Other excuses?!



So is RD upset because Malacuso wanted a fair hearing for the case, or is he afraid that McLaren will get finally busted for spying on another team?
They've already been found guilty and now they will likely be punished too, and even if it will only be a fine (which will keep everyone happy) it will in fact leave no more doubts about McLaren being at fault in the whole affair!

He could have saved the money and the time of going to the copy shop to make those copies, Max and Todt also read newspapers! ;)

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All Ferrari are going to succeed in achieving if McLaren are punished is embarrasing the FIA. They are basically telling the FIA they are not doing their job properly.

Perhaps Ferrari need to take a long hard look at why their employees would behave in such a manner.

Remember, the one guy who has alluded to assisting in getting Ferrari's their bullett proof reliability was 'moved internally', then treated very badly, set up, and sacked. And now, they can't figure out why unreliability is creeping in.

Sheesh, talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

Welcome back to the Ferrari team of old........

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Well, it's written by the same Ron Dennis who the FIA didn't believe in Hungary at the weekend, who is the same Ron Dennis who has publically stated an outright lie that the Ferrari was illegal in Melbourne.

It certainly doesn't come from an objective and reliable source.

Unless your biased.

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So you don't believe that the FIA heard any arguments from Ferrari at all during those proceedings, and that that entire description is a fabrication? This is rather different from Dennis saying that the floor was illegal in Melbourne, which is untrue, but hardly a lie on the scale of fabricating an entire description of what happened at an FIA hearing and can be easily proved one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

IMHO Ferrari's floor is a side-show. Ron Dennis has already said:
The issue surrounding Stepney's email regarding Ferrari's floor was looked at by the original hearing.

One reason for there being so much focus on the email (exibit #1!) is that it supposedly shows McLaren illegally obtaining confidential Ferrari information to gain an advantage. The FIA have not accepted Ferrari's argument that this was the case.

This is crucial because without it Ferrari are having great difficulty proving their accusations that McLaren illegally obtained and used the 780-page document (exibit #2!). They appear to have no evidence, other than Coughlan's possession, that suggests McLaren had any knowledge of the document, let alone used it in any way.

Ferrari need the email to be seen as a case of theft of confidential information used to gain an advantage, because, by association, that makes it appear that McLaren (not Coughlan) could have obtained and used the document to do the same.

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The issue at hand in this end of the case against McLaren , is whether the "whistle-blower" moniker is appropriate .
Ron's case hinges on his convincing the FIA that Ferrari were , indeed , illegal .
If he is correct about this , then Ferrari should be wiped from the records in the Oz gp .
But , reports were , that the floors were changed up and down the pit lane .
Would all those moving floors have to removed from the results ?

As you said earlier , it affected everyone . Mind you , I think that that is more true in the sense that everyone now had to fly with the same rules . McLaren didn't have to change , as they supposedly were asking if they could , not protesting .

Dennis knew the Ferrari was illegal in Melbourne , and didn't protest the results , even though he lost points to the reds ?
That could have been the double burn , and an opportunity that I can't believe Ron would miss .


Ron is trying desperately to attach the word "illegal" to Ferrari in Oz , when he knows full well they were not .
Ron should be careful he doesn't say much more , as it will only point publicly to the stewards and/or the FIA getting it wrong , when they didn't .