Is There a God?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What also seems to be being said is that they would be perfectly happy with a radical Muslim politician, but not an atheist.

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Funny part is that the Muslim have the very same view.
If you need a Visa for Saudi Arabia you have to provide them a certificate of baptism, if you say that you are atheist you'll be considered very dangerous and never get a visa.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I just find that explanation/argument inadequate. It simply doesn't answer the question of where that 'being' got its morality from.

If morality had one source it would suggest that morals are absolute. But this can't be true as morals are constantly evolving.

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Exactly, it is all about evolution.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Perfectly legitimate. Would you please elaborate then on how you tell fact and reason from their opposites?

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Knowledge and common sense?

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

This is a fundamental difference that I hope we can discuss further.

My decisions are based on many things just as yours are. My upbringing, my family, experiences I have had whether good or bad. Morality and values I hold. These things are pertinent to me and go to make up who I am and what I 'believe' in. I can make mistakes, learn, feel compassion, hope, love, joy, despair and at no time will I have to go to 2nd hand information handed down by a 1800 year old book.

I find it strange nd a matter of concern that someone will not use all these factors and influences when making a decision and would rather resort to an out of date book instead. When someone says something is 'Gods will' or 'God is on our side' as grounds for making decisions rather than logic, facts and reason, then I get very jumpy.

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I think this would be a good example of how lack of religious basis could affect the through process of someone not religious. There are those who see all actions as being the will of God. Thus if they used the same influences as thought processes that you name such as upbringing, personal experiences, moral standards, etc they would see those events as acts willed by God, thus could place weight on all of them and still see it as "the will of God".

An aethiest or agnostic might view these same influences as random choice of the universe, coincidence, chance, karma, whatever and find no tie to God or religion.



It seems to me that many are making it sound as though people with religious beliefs and those without will always come to different conclusions, or if they come to the same conclusion the reasoning of one group is flawed. I would find this very thought process flawed myself. If a believer, an aethiest and an agnostic come to the same conclusion regarding a moral issue that does not make the decision valid in the eyes of all, nor flawed in the eyes of all. They would often come to different conclusions based on a number of things and the whole of their personal beliefs system.

I would think that most people, religious or not, are influenced by a great number of factors. Any or all of those factors can be flawed, taken to extremes, misguided, etc. Many younger people are primarily influenced by their families and social circle, but as they grow older in life often differ in opinion from those forms of guidance that were the primary core of their moral though process for years. I suspect many of them realize at some point that virtually everyone has biases of some sort, differing opinions of moral right and wrongs, and other such individual traits. Otherwise we would see little if any change over the years in racial and religious tolerance, stereotypes, sexual discrimination, and many more such issues.

I find it interesting that some people could think that the decisions of others are flawed, even though those people have in many cases made the same decision, just based on different influences.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Admit somebody might know better than you, maybe the one who deals the cards.

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Maybe, but proof is needed, and there is no proof to it.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Based on the history examples I tried to show you that with a virtual inability of human beings to know all the facts, and deficiencies in human thinking, any reasoning is inherently flawed. Believers cope with this problem by factoring in things beyond human control and understanding, while atheists just tend to ignore those. In my book ignorance has never been a good strategy.

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Just a question:
IS there any proof in history, which you are using a lot (you're a historian most probably), that the decisions that were taken under influence of a belief in whichever god were better/righter than those that were taken based on knowledge and common sense?

My wild guess is that there is no such proof.

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Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

No, Just no.

Leaving what we don't understand to be in the hands of the supernatural is ignorance.

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Exactly! And isn't just that what religion has mostly produce for many centuries? An enormous bunch of ignorants?

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Originally Posted by ioan

As an atheist I find my reference in my own knowledge and capabilities, and I know that I can count on them to live the life I want to live.

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Very well put.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Exactly! And isn't just that what religion has mostly produce for many centuries? An enormous bunch of ignorants?

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Not necessarily. There are many very wise people who are also deeply religious. Let's not tar one group with the same brush, no matter what we may think of religion per se.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Not necessarily. There are many very wise people who are also deeply religious. Let's not tar one group with the same brush, no matter what we may think of religion per se.

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Sure there are exceptions, I fully agree, but the bunch of ignorant was quite impressive in centuries past by, and only the knowledge that was made available to people has made a difference in the last couple of centuries. Before that you risked your life if you dare to imply that the Earth is a sphere and the Sun does not orbit the Earth, but the other way around.