The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by jens

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

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Good observation...

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Originally Posted by jens

Besides all this endless Kimi v Alonso talk it is worth noting that their first seasons in Ferrari are not too dissimilar. Alonso might still "do a Kimi" and win in the end despite overall a bit disappointing season and playing catch-up in the standings almost all year. The difference is that Alonso has got Massa under control better than Kimi ever had.

It looks like the main difference derives from qualifying. Massa managed to outqualify Kimi more often than not and thus managed to often get superior results. On the other hand Alonso manages to outqualify Massa almost on a consistent basis.

As we see, current Massa is actually quite fast. He has come to grips with the car and manages to basically match Alonso's race pace, likewise he managed to match Kimi's race pace. But the difference is qualifying and track position - you may match pace, but there is a big difference whether you're in front or behind. And with the exception of some driving mistakes, this is where Alonso manages to play his cards well compared to Massa.

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When he was racing against kimi, he wasnt told to lower the RPMs of his car, while Kimi was told to increase his.
Massa has no chance against Santander, when he was made nr.2 driver since before the first race.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Or maybe you missed the German GP this season?

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There were team orders in Brazil '07 and China '08 as well. Granted, this year they happened much earlier in the season, but then again in 07-08 one Ferrari hadn't accumulated notably more points than the other by mid-season.

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

The question is whether Massa is the same driver he was before that spring almost killed him? Häkkinen never was after his accident, he admitted it himself. He won 2 WDCs after that but was cautios, for example, in rain.

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I haven't seen those special qualifying laps by Massa for two years already that were existent in 2008, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it. But I have to say Alonso's qualifying performances have slightly exceeded my expectations - after getting outqualified by Trulli and Hamilton I expected him to be more vulnerable in this area in the team-mate battle.

I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with Massa's race pace at the moment - whether he is or isn't quite as aggressive in wheel-to-wheel racing as he used to be, is harder to say. Another question is whether it took half a season for Massa to adapt to the car due to accident and pause in racing - meaning that maybe he is slower in adapting than he used to be?!

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

When he was racing against kimi, he wasnt told to lower the RPMs of his car, while Kimi was told to increase his.
Massa has no chance against Santander, when he was made nr.2 driver since before the first race.

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As mentioned earlier in this thread, Massa wasn't asked to move over for Alonso in Australia and Malaysia, when he was still very much a front-runner in the points standings. How much Alonso has been preferred in the car preparation phase, is harder and subjective to tell. But in Massa's case I'm very much looking forward to 2011 and hoping he finds that extra tenth in qualifying, which he would badly need.

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Originally Posted by jens

There were team orders in Brazil '07 and China '08 as well. Granted, this year they happened much earlier in the season, but then again in 07-08 one Ferrari hadn't accumulated notably more points than the other by mid-season.

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In 2007 and 2008 it was agreed before the race and only when one of them had a chance to win the WDC, this time around it came out of the blue, or maybe out of Alonso's whining?!

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Originally Posted by ioan

In 2007 and 2008 it was agreed before the race and only when one of them had a chance to win the WDC, this time around it came out of the blue, or maybe out of Alonso's whining?!

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you have no shame man. where were your high moral standards in 2002? Back then team orders were issued much earlier in the season and were absolutely unnecessary. this post is the pinnacle of hypocrisy. you are nothing but a troll and I don´t get why the mods didn´t ban you for good by now.

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Originally Posted by eu

you have no shame man. where were your high moral standards in 2002?

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There were no rules against team orders back in 2002.
Next time get your facts right before insulting other forum members.

Anyway it was a pleasure to hear Alonso squealing for team orders.
Best of all was that even though Ferrari asked Massa to turn the revs down and still Alonso wasn't able to overtake him and had to beg for team orders.

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

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Originally Posted by ioan

There were no rules against team orders back in 2002.
Next time get your facts right before insulting other forum members.

Anyway it was a pleasure to hear Alonso squealing for team orders.
Best of all was that even though Ferrari asked Massa to turn the revs down and still Alonso wasn't able to overtake him and had to beg for team orders.

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

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perhaps you should go back to your post because you seem to forget that it wasn´t the breaking of the rules you were complaining about.... as for the rest of the post it´s just trolling... again and I'm not here to feed you.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I guess it was the same back at Renault against Trulli and Fisichella only that we didn't get to hear their radio conversations back then, what a pity.

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I recall once FA complained over the radio about Fisichella holding him while the almighty MS benefited from a very kind and well intended slow lap of Massa just before pit stop... I think the year was 2006, and the GP was in US... and team orders were banned btw

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Originally Posted by eu

I recall once FA complained over the radio about Fisichella holding him while the almighty MS benefited from a very kind and well intended slow lap of Massa just before pit stop... I think the year was 2006, and the GP was in US... and team orders were banned btw

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Its is quite common knowledge that the flav favored alonso to such a degree that many thought the team might as well be running one car then. We all know how they treated trulli and Fisi (whose fragile personality did not help matters either) so it came as a shock to alonso when he was not given preferential treatment at Mclaren. Was back to his usual ways at Renault, where it was clear he was the number one and his teammates were barely worthy of an f1 seat, then made sure once he got to Ferrari to secure some sort of an agreement which favored him because massa on his day would give him a run for his money.

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the detriment of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

I predicted that Ferrari situation would result in a mess by hockenheim, and funny enough...it did.

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Originally Posted by truefan72

Its is quite common knowledge that the flav favored alonso to such a degree that many thought the team might as well be running one car then. We all know how they treated trulli and Fisi (whose fragile personality did not help matters either) so it came as a shock to alonso when he was not given preferential treatment at Mclaren. Was back to his usual ways at Renault, where it was clear he was the number one and his teammates were barely worthy of an f1 seat, then made sure once he got to Ferrari to secure some sort of an agreement which favored him because massa on his day would give him a run for his money.

It is funny how the 3 biggest scandals to hit formula one of recent memory all have to do with Alonso trying to get his way to the detriment of his team, the sport and his fellow driver.

I predicted that Ferrari situation would result in a mess by hockenheim, and funny enough...it did.

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The problem was that the team didn't tell Fisi to move out of the way like Massa was doing for MS but that situation doesn't go welll with the bashing fest