Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

But that's not the FIA's problem. They want to know why Ron did nothing when supposedly his employees had and knew about the documents since March. Coughlan's affidavit gave the FIA many infos about the issue and Ron will have to explain everything now.

---

can you prove that employees of McLaren had knowledge of this document since March. can you even prove that Mike had the document in March please.

finally, can you tell us exactly what is on the affidavit because outside of the FIA, McLaren and Ferrari, you are the only one that has this knowledge apart from the bits that have been leaked to the Itallian media in a disgraceful media spin campaign that makes a mockery of any sort of justice in this case. I suppose it's Ron that leaked this info is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

can you prove that employees of McLaren had knowledge of this document since March. can you even prove that Mike had the document in March please.

finally, can you tell us exactly what is on the affidavit because outside of the FIA, McLaren and Ferrari, you are the only one that has this knowledge apart from the bits that have been leaked to the Itallian media in a disgraceful media spin campaign that makes a mockery of any sort of justice in this case. I suppose it's Ron that leaked this info is it?

---

It's all in Coughlan's affidavit, and the FIA having been granted access to it summoned the McLaren team as soon as they've seen it, to asnwer why did they had the documents since March and did nothing about it!

You may b!tch about the Italian media as much as you like, that won't change what happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

It's all in Coughlan's affidavit, and the FIA having been granted access to it summoned the McLaren team as soon as they've seen it, to asnwer why did they had the documents since March and did nothing about it!

You may b!tch about the Italian media as much as you like, that won't change what happened.

---

can you at least TRY to back up some of your posts :rolleyes:

what evidence are the FIA using in relation to these charges. it may very well be the affadavit as you claim but there may be other things. the affadavit is not supposed to have been disclosed and is a sworn legal statement so unless you can prove what is in it, then we only have the very selective passages that have allegedly been disgracefully supplied to the Itallian press.

are they genuine and used in isolation like this, do they provide a true and accurate picture?

when youve been around the game long enough, you soon learn to take anything written in the press with a pinch of salt and not quote it as facts as some people here do. even when you do hear something with your own ears, it generally is 90% rubbish and you have to sift out the 10% that might have some basis in truth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

But that's not the FIA's problem. They want to know why Ron did nothing when supposedly his employees had and knew about the documents since March.

---

The reason for the FIA hearing on the 26th July is for McLaren representatives

Quote:

---

...to answer a charge that between March and July 2007, in breach of Article 151c of the International Sporting Code, Vodafone McLaren Mercedes had unauthorised possession of documents and confidential information belonging to Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro, including information that could be used to design, engineer, build, check, test, develop and/or run a 2007 Ferrari Formula One car."

---

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60729

That charge is a result of one McLaren employee, Mike Coughlan, having possession of those documents which in turn automatically means that the team as a whole is answerable to the FIA.

On that basis McLaren are in breach of the Sporting Code. However, I suspect that McLaren's argument is that Coughlan was acting alone, and in his own interests, and at no point were the documents in the possession of anyone else at McLaren.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

The reason for the FIA hearing on the 26th July is for McLaren representatives
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60729

That charge is a result of one McLaren employee, Mike Coughlan, having possession of those documents which in turn automatically means that the team as a whole is answerable to the FIA.

---

Exactly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

On that basis McLaren are in breach of the Sporting Code. However, I suspect that McLaren's argument is that Coughlan was acting alone, and in his own interests, and at no point were the documents in the possession of anyone else at McLaren.

---

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

---

sorry, is this a fact or rumour?

as per your sig, please back that statement up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

The trouble is that several team members knew about this breach of the sporting code but no one did anything to stop this and thus clean the teams name. Why is that?

---

That information has reportedly been leaked from Coughlan's affidavit (link) which apparently says that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from the documents and advising Couglan to destroy them.

Following that report McLaren issued a statement saying:

Quote:

---

"McLaren is concerned that erroneous speculation has arisen from inaccurate and misleading reference to the contents of confidential legal papers filed at court in response to Ferrari's UK action to recover its intellectual property. This is unfortunate and is prejudicial to a fair interpretation of these matters...McLaren can confirm from its own investigation that no Ferrari materials or data are or have ever been in the possession of any McLaren employee other than the individual sued by Ferrari."

---

(link).

ioan, I think it's worth reminding ourselves of what we do actually know and consider what is allergation or rumour.

Quote:

---

FACT

1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no basis in fact.
2.something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a fact.
3.a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4.something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts given by the witness are highly questionable.

---

number 4 is particulaly relevant because a duly signed and noted affadavit is not necessarily factually correct but is a sworn testamony of the truth as one person perceives it. we have the persons word that it is the truth but occassionaly, people lie to protect themselves. now, THAT is fact.

Quote:

---

Allegation

1.the act of alleging; affirmation.
2.an assertion made with little or no proof.
3.an assertion made by a party in a legal proceeding, which the party then undertakes to prove.
4.a statement offered as a plea, excuse, or justification.

---

again, number 3 is the relevant passage. there is an allegation that McLaren may have had material that was another teams and contravened the FIA sporting code. McLaren have been summoned to give their side of this affair and answer the charge and any evidence. If, after this meeting, the FIA believe there is proof that McLaren is guilty, they will set about prooving the charge. if McLaren satisfactorily answer the charge, they will be absolved.

as for rumour, well, I guess thats what your talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

if McLaren satisfactorily answer the charge, they will be absolved.

---

I don't know what is a satisfactory answer in this case given that apparently they didn't do what was right to do, that is immediately announce Ferrari and the FIA about what happened.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

That information has reportedly been leaked from Coughlan's affidavit (link) which apparently says that all McLaren employees responded in the same manner, by distancing themselves from the documents and advising Couglan to destroy them.

Following that report McLaren issued a statement saying:
(link).

---

But the problem is that, in the 'spirit of the rules' that so many hark on about, it's not enough just to distance yourself.

If anyone else at Mclaren knew that Coughlan had the documents, they should have brought it to the attention of Ron Dennis, the FIA & Ferrari.

Advising Coughlan to destroy them is not a moral stance and not a legal one, it's being implicit with an illegal action.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

but occassionaly, people lie to protect themselves. now, THAT is fact.

---

And, by your well argued logic, the very same could be said about Mclaren's rebuttal.

jean Todts words

Quote:

---

Finally, Todt summarised Ferrari's ongoing legal action against former employee Nigel Stepney and McLaren's chief designer Mike Coughlan. "We have a penal case ongoing in Italy against Nigel Stepney and we have a civil case in UK against Mike Coughlan.
"There is one hearing organised by the FIA on the 26th. At this stage, as I said two weeks ago, we cannot comment on it. Unfortunately it has been leaked too much in the press over the last days but it's out of our control. The more people who are aware, the more opportunity you have to have leaks. We just have to follow the procedures which are in process." But Todt did explain that Ferrari would be represented. However, he didn't confirm whether they would be offering evidence against McLaren, but closed by saying that "we may comment after the hearing."

---

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=262648&FS=F1

what I find interesting is that knowing what is contained in the statement, they are not choosing to persue McLaren with criminal charges relating to theft or espionage.

now, this is an opinion but my suggestion is that they know McLaren are clean otherwise they would have them up for it. Ron is stating catagorically that they are clean, putting his reputation on the line, and the FIA are going through a due dilligence excercise to ensure everything is transparent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

jean Todts words

http://motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=262648&FS=F1

what I find interesting is that knowing what is contained in the statement, they are not choosing to persue McLaren with criminal charges relating to theft or espionage.

now, this is an opinion but my suggestion is that they know McLaren are clean otherwise they would have them up for it. Ron is stating catagorically that they are clean, putting his reputation on the line, and the FIA are going through a due dilligence excercise to ensure everything is transparent.

---

Whilst I tend to agree, it's worth bearing in mind that

A) The FIA have charged Mclaren. Therefore it is not just due diligence. There is a charge to be answered.

The FIA deal with sporting regulations, and breaking a sporting regulation doesn't have to involve a criminal act.

B) Investigations by the Italian police are ongoing. Just because a party hasn't been charged yet doesn't mean that they are not going to be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

And, by your well argued logic, the very same could be said about Mclaren's rebuttal.

---

very much so. BUT, Ron has been very adamant and specific in such a way that he cannot be misinterpreted in any way. if there was any evidence, he would be crucified.

if there was complicity at McLaren, Ron could never be so sure and confident that there was no smoking gun. This leads me to think they are clean. Ronny's just TOO adamant for any uncertentity to be there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

Whilst I tend to agree, it's worth bearing in mind that

A) The FIA have charged Mclaren. Therefore it is not just due diligence. There is a charge to be answered.

The FIA deal with sporting regulations, and breaking a sporting regulation doesn't have to involve a criminal act.

B) Investigations by the Italian police are ongoing. Just because a party hasn't been charged yet doesn't mean that they are not going to be.

---

A) you are right but we dont know if this charge relates to this affadavit or something else. a little bird told me that it may relate to an email and not these plans. however, I stress that is rumour and I have no link.

B) agree totally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

very much so. BUT, Ron has been very adamant and specific in such a way that he cannot be misinterpreted in any way. if there was any evidence, he would be crucified.

---

Many a man has cried "I'm innocent" when they aren't. Being adamant is no guarantee of honesty.

Not to mention that, very much like Maranello in Enzo's days, perhaps nobody dare be honest with the boss?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ioan

I don't know what is a satisfactory answer in this case given that apparently they didn't do what was right to do, that is immediately announce Ferrari and the FIA about what happened.

---

what you mean is that if McLaren employees apart from Mike saw this document, and didn't report it, then McLaren should explain why not. there is no "apparently", but there is a rumour.

now, a little scenario for you.

what if Ross Brawn was approached by Nigel who said

"Ross old man, hypothetically what if I was to tell you that someone sent me the plans to next years McLaren".

and Ross replied

"Hypothetically, I would say they are hotter than a super-heated potato and you should burn them straight away".

is Rossie Boy in the wrong and should he grass him up to Todt and the FIA?

remember those bodies before you answer because this may come back to haunt Ferrari.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

what you mean is that if McLaren employees apart from Mike saw this document, and didn't report it, then McLaren should explain why not. there is no "apparently", but there is a rumour.

now, a little scenario for you.

what if Ross Brawn was approached by Nigel who said

"Ross old man, hypothetically what if I was to tell you that someone sent me the plans to next years McLaren".

and Ross replied

"Hypothetically, I would say they are hotter than a super-heated potato and you should burn them straight away".

is Rossie Boy in the wrong and should he grass him up to Todt and the FIA?

remember those bodies before you answer because this may come back to haunt Ferrari.

---

Seeing a document, or being told of a documents existence is not the same as being asked a hypothetical question about a document.

The first two will get you charged by the FIA, the third won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tamburello

Many a man has cried "I'm innocent" when they aren't. Being adamant is no guarantee of honesty.

Not to mention that, very much like Maranello in Enzo's days, perhaps nobody dare be honest with the boss?

---

I dont think the first part is right. evens Rons enemys respect his integrity. Ive never seen anyone in the business call Ron a dishonest man. now, Flav you would check your watch was on your wrist after shaking his hand :laugh:

the worrying thing is the second sentence. Ron had a crisis meeting the day before this broke and specifically asked if anyone else had seen any Ferrari documents. now, obviously I cant prove this so we will call it a rumour but apparently, it was news to the design and engineering heads. they know Ron was putting his reputation on the line, as he has before for McLaren, so if anyone witheld information, they may have sealed Rons fate. I really hope this isn't the case because this will all come out on Thursday.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

Space travel is now a fact.

---

Space travel has been always a fact since we are three dimensional bodies moving (traveling) in a three dimensional world (space).

Outer space travel is a fact since Yuri Gagarin (or since Sputnik if you don't mind if isn't any human travelling).

Interstellar travel isn't a fact. And won't be a fact as far as light speed would be a limit for objects with mass.

I know it's off topic, but I couldn't resist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

now, this is an opinion but my suggestion is that they know McLaren are clean otherwise they would have them up for it.

---

I agree with you, but maybe they think that while justice will never consideer McLaren guilty, FIA would do easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

I suppose it's Ron that leaked this info is it?

---

Allegedly, it COULD be someone with McLaren ties (Ron would never do it himself) as this has been done in court cases before in order to discredit the charges.

No, I don't have a link - it's just a hypothetical scenario - but in this mess, anything is possible!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wmcot

Allegedly, it COULD be someone with McLaren ties (Ron would never do it himself) as this has been done in court cases before in order to discredit the charges.

No, I don't have a link - it's just a hypothetical scenario - but in this mess, anything is possible!

---

anything is possible ;) but I think it most likely to have been leaked by Ferrari, dont you? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

anything is possible ;) but I think it most likely to have been leaked by Ferrari, dont you? :D

---

At this point, who knows??? I'm not even taking the "leaks" seriously since they could be assumptions by the tabloids or just one of those "heard it from X who heard it from Y who heard it from Z who saw the document" things. Maybe the papers are getting their "news" from forums like this one?

It will be interesting to hear any real news once the cases are heard.

Well I guess we will know more tomorrow, is this hearing behind closed doors?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ian McC

is this hearing behind closed doors?

---

I hope so; is hot in Paris this days, and if they leave the doors open, the air conditioner won't work at its best :p : .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by andreag

I hope so; is hot in Paris this days, and if they leave the doors open, the air conditioner won't work at its best :p : .

---

Only 22 over there!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day.shtml?world=0040

As the FIA have completed their hearing and announced their verdict discussion on this topic can continue in the Mclaren cleared....for now thread.