I don't believe that, not one bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
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I don't believe that, not one bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
What about at least trying it before dismissing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
It certainly worked in other countries.
I've just read the transcript of Wayne LaPierre's speech, although "rant" might be a more appropriate word. Good lord, if he's the most articulate thinker the NRA can put forward to advance their argument they're in more trouble than I thought. I'm actually glad he's spoken out, the more airtime he gets hopefully the more people will see his organisation for what it is: a bunch of Neanderthals with no clue whatsoever.
He blames violent video games, the media, mental health issues, anything but gun ownership. Guess what buddy, pretty much every westernised country has those problems to one degree or another, but it's only the USA which has such a crazy murder rate.
His core policy idea of a gunman in every school should be the final nail in the coffin of this dinosaur of a gun club. His swivel-eyed paranoia is matched only by the stupidity and impracticality of his proposals.
Here's a good article: NRA proposal to post armed guards in schools is debunked by critics | World news | guardian.co.uk
tl;dr: it would cost between 4 and 7 billion dollars, wouldn't (didn't) work, and is bonkers.
Gobsmacked!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
and to continue with the commercialism aspect of this tragedy:Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Centurion Tactical Vest for Children | Amendment II
and to see a video on donks first link:
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com
I know most of you don't live like that, but the fact that anyone does, in the Land of Freedom (fries :dozey :) , is truly mind-boggling. And you clearly have a market for it all. :crazy:
Bullet proof cars were big business in Colombia during the cartel wars. Imagine that market taking hold over here.Quote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Just imagine; The New 2013 Bullet proof Lexus LX. Dry comfortably and securely, really.
i'm being facetious here . . . . this is not at all funny.
This one isn't going to. Society won't cure itself because people do not act rationally.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
http://www.jhsph.edu/research/center...02512_CGPR.pdf
There are enormous economic costs associated with gun violence in the U.S. Firearmrelated deaths and injuries resulted in medical and lost productivity expenses of about $32 billion in 2005.
But the overall cost of gun violence goes well beyond these figures. When lost quality of life, psychological and emotional trauma, decline in property values, and other legal and societal consequences are included, the cost of gun violence in the U.S. was estimated to be about $100 billion annually in 1998.
If you adjust that for inflation you arrive at approximately $1.7tn or slightly over 10% of GDP. This is akin to the broken window fallacy en masse. That's not rational at all.
The purpose of having the 2nd Amendment is to stop the USA government from walking all over you, and taking away your rights. Wacky Wayne now points the finger to everything except for guns in a shooting spree, and proposes that American schools each have an armed guard, most likely paid by the government, on the premises?
Well, that worked beautifully with the TSA after September 11th. I feel like my rights are never violated when I go to an airport, and an armed guard sticks his hand near my testicles whilst searching for a bomb. I feel so much safer now that I can't criticize a security agent because I'll be kept waiting until my flight leaves, so I'll inevitably get stranded. I cannot wait for the same measures to be applied at my local elementary school, so kids can get searched and frisked just in case they're stashing something other than cookies in the lunch box.
In Europe, yes — even the most rabid conservatives would surely find his comments appalling. But where it matters? I doubt it. The fact that people here (well, one person) whose views I've sometimes found reasonably sensible seem detached from reality (or, beyond that, terms I'd rather not use) on the subject of guns suggests not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave B
Exactly. Yet somehow none of these intrusions into basic liberties matters. Strange, that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
All I am doing is offering an opinion. In what position am I to force anything on you?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
If there is a tone of superiority emanating from my comments on this subject, I'm glad. I'd take the views of any European, even those whose views on many other subjects I find abhorrent, over those of a gun-loving American any day.
I'd be happy to do that in Europe, the population of which, for some reason, is not as gripped by the fear of armed intruders as are your countrymen. Maybe you might like to consider why this is, and why doing so in America might elicit a different response?Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Again, you fail to answer my original question. Please do so, otherwise I might begin to suspect you don't have a response to it. Would you be happier seeing another tragedy like that in Newtown than stricter restrictions on gun ownership? This ought to be a straight 'yes or no' answer. And, with respect, it is your views and those of many of your countrymen who are open to question here, not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck34
Well, there you have it in a nutshell. They may not think of themselves as weak, but those who require protection, or feel they require protection, ought always to ask why this is. A bit of self-awareness might not go amiss.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
There are plenty of people who feel they need protection, this is probably the case a lil' bit everywhere, however feeling strong just because of owning a gun points towards serious issues, IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
Yes, I agree. I should have been more specific — of course there are many in need of genuine protection, whether physical or psychological. Certainly, a gun ought never to be the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
It is rather ironic though today that at the NEA press conference security was extrely tight to make sure none of the press were carrying. So guns banned from a conference about not banning guns...
I gather also that, in the same sentence at the press conference, it was said that the NRA was starting a debate and that no questions would be taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by TyPat107
Just so some of the more judgmental on this panel can put their sweeping generalizations of Americans in the proper context, the support for stricter gun laws is increasing. More than 1-in-3 Americans supported stricter gun laws before the recent shootings. Now, the ratio is getting close to, or more than, 1-in-2, depending on the poll.
I have seen much the same range of figures quoted, but — and call me pessimistic if you wish — I don't believe there will be any substantial, meaningful change. Naturally, I would be delighted to be proved wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by keysersoze
I'm not an American. I am, however, a teacher. And, at the risk of severely understating my sentiments on the subject, I feel that this proposal to have armed security officers on school grounds at all times is incredibly disturbing.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
I for one would not be comfortable teaching in a school with the knowledge that someone was there with a live weapon. And no matter how trustworthy that person might be, I would be unable to overlook the fact that they were placed there by the NRA, and that the NRA placed them there because they did not want to give up the right to bear arms on any level. If I'm reading LaPierre's comments right, they won't even support the reintroduction of a bill banning the ownership of military-grade assault rifles, weapons that - as far as I can see - civilians have no need to own. By extension of this, I feel that the NRA thinks the right to bear arms is more important than protecting the lives and livelihoods of children. Maybe that's an extreme view of the subject, but I can't be the only person thinking it.
Twenty children died at Sandy Hook Elementary. That's about the size of my Year 12 English class. Adam Lanza could have walked into my classroom. Now, LaPierre can stand at that lectern and postulate all he wants, but I know these kids. LaPierre doesn't. I work with them every day. LaPierre doesn't. Maybe his proposal for armed guards at every school will work, but I have to ask myself: what is the lesser evil - risking my students' lives and livelihoods so that LaPierre can enjoy his personal freedoms? Or enduring his fury as one element of his personal freedom is taken away or lessened for the sake of protecting my students? I'd pick the latter every single time.
Charlton Heston once said that the government could only take his gun from his cold, dead hands, and it became a rallying cry for gun lobbyists. But perhaps that time is closer than they or we think - it takes someone truly cold and dead inside to value their gun over the lives of children.
That "sense of power" , to which I referred , is something different to different people .Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
For me , it's a healthy respect .
It's kind of like when I'm driving a car carrying passengers .
I always like to remind myself about how I hold thier lives in my hands . It's not just a quick trip to the store . It's a duty to get them there safely .
There's a thrill in a fast car , too , but I'd never go looking for it with passengers in my car .
The guns I used were the tools I needed , and using them gave me a healthy respect for them .
After seeing what it did to the groundhogs I shot , I honestly don't know if I could ever pull the trigger if the aim was to stop a human .
So , is that weak ?
Anyone who lives anywhere between Cape Horn and either Kaffeklubben Island or Cape Columbia.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
That's funny as well as true.Quote:
Originally Posted by bleaivano
Not the answer:
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/23/ubebu3a5.jpg
Baggy, I think there is some misunderstanding here. Allow me to quote again your original sentence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Now, how can you compare driving passengers around with your car with the 'real sense of power' given by a using/owning a gun?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagwan
Either my English has deteriorated a lot, or you should have phrased your first post differently.
Very true, and equally sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
Other than to say that the Sandy Hook shooting was a horrible tragedy, I have no interest in getting into this 650 post pissing contest. I am a gun owner, have been for all of my adult life and I believe in responsible gun ownership, should one choose to own a firearm. I've already made dozens of posts on this topic over the years and I have no interest in re-stating what I've already said many, many times. The solutions to gun violence are complex, as it pertains to American society, and creating more pieces of paper with words on them won't do much. It is not as simple as some seem to want it to be. But believe as you wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan
To Bagwan's point though, not to speak for him, but I think what he meant was, there typically is a certain thrill factor when shooting certain types of firearms that can easily be compared to driving certain types of high performance cars. Years ago, I took my (then) fiancee to a range that I frequented. They would rent you an Uzi (among other full auto weapons), and for something like $20 an hour, you could fire away to your heart's content. This was my idea for a different sort of date night. This girl was a real girly-girl... quite the little princess. I wasn't sure if she'd be into it or not. But once I got her all set, put my arms around her to show her how to handle it (see, I always had a "good reason" for taking girls to the range :) ) she loved it. It was a thrill to shoot that thing. It didn't have any meaningful recoil - it was more like a giant squirt gun because the cycle rate was so fast (something like 700+ rounds per minute!). She shot it more than I did... and since you had to buy the ammo from the range, she almost broke me - think about ammo at $25+/- for a 50 round box... for a gun that shoots 700 rounds a minute!!! :eek: The range owner was a pal of mine and offered me some extra mags. I told him, "Hell no! The only way my credit card can stand this is because of the time we spend reloading the two mags that you gave us!" But we had some good, harmless, naughty fun. It was nice. It was fun. It was a thrill for both of us.
The only thing about that date that disturbed me was when she told me that some of the men who worked for her father (in Peru) carried guns just like that. "Wait... what?! I thought your dad was a farmer?!" This was back during the hellish days of the Shining Path guerrilla/terrorist movement down there, so I let it go. Best not to dwell on that which I might not want to know... ignorance is bliss.
But anyway, even to her (a non gun owner from a society that saw guns in a different light), that was a thrill ride. Same as when I'd nail the gas in my car - she got a huge kick out of hearing that V12 open up and wail too. My current girl is a pretty anti-gun person. She's not into them at all. But when we've gotten together with mutual friends, she's shot everything from Glocks to Sig pistols to a (legal) MP5 submachine gun. And it really is weird to see a pretty liberal girl who was raised in a quiet suburb (and who works in the school system BTW) get such a thrill out of firing these weapons. Would she ever own a gun? Not even! If she could wish them all away, would she? Probably. Does it bother her that her man is an NRA Life member? Well, let's just say that we've had some spirited discussions from time to time. But for the most part, I'm fairly reasonable and sane about how I feel and fairly rational about why I feel the way that I do. She respects that and I respect her viewpoint as well. We just don't agree on this particular issue. But since I know that firing that guy's MP5 got her all warm and tingly... I hold that over her head, as any good boyfriend would. :)
Sorry to interrupt. Continue on with the pissing match now. I've got a bet that youse guys can get to 700 posts by Christmas Eve! :bounce:
Race - People have to be trained properly in the positions of security. The above could have all been easily prevented if the security people hadQuote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
the slightest clue. People think arming a guy and letting them sit around or walk around is security - it is a joke. Any of the above would be tough to defense though as
the shooters had permission to be there. As we continue down the path bombs will become more and more prevalent and the dead innocents will increase. Sad but the world is what we have made it.
"...there typically is a certain thrill factor when shooting certain types of firearms that can easily be compared to driving certain types of high performance cars." Jag_WarriorQuote:
Originally Posted by ioan
That's reasonably accurate , as I see it .
It's danger , I guess .
It's a thrill to have the tires singing on the edge of grip around a corner because of the danger .
That makes me respect the edge , and know where it is .
I guess , to be more accurate , I should added "because of the danger involved ." .
What Jag described as a date wouldn't be something I'd think of for a date .
Now , go-karts would be a different story .
I can't say I even know of any gun clubs around here .
The average redneck around these parts does have a few rifles , a few more fishing rods , and a truck with big tires to thrash on the weekends that neither deer season or favourite fish seasons are open .
In case you did not know by now, there's panic buying all across the USA due to the Sandy Hook shooting, and the announcements from certain politicians to reform gun laws. There's a run on everything from Glock 17s, AR-15s (none under $1000), and even 30-round magazines. The purchasing prices for these items has reached a high level of stupidity. Yes, I do understand the supply and demand curve, but the panic buying has reached worse proportions than in 2008 when Obama was elected, and the NRA conducted a smear campaign to increase gun sales.
I will state again that I am a proud gun owner, but the NRA does not represent me, not in the least. The rhetoric coming out of this organization makes me think of scared group of men, huddled in a corner, firmly gripping their weapons, and looking for a way out of jam. I also do not agree with my fellow countrymen that the status quo should be upheld in USA. The NRA is responsible for the $30 billion per annum gun industry in America, and when mass shootings happen, then it's time to face the music. The NRA are cowards. The NRA are an embarrassment to responsible gun owners. The NRA should have at least had the temerity to find a reasonable solution to avoiding another mass shooting, not completely shut out criticism. They've stupidly suggested that the only way to prevent another Sandy Hook is to hire armed guards at every school.
Do you know what the future of USA entails? Here is the future. Some parents have thrown in the towel and decided that bulletproofing their children is a better idea than dealing with guns.
Afraid of a little criticism? I don't think this is a piss contest. Twenty kids are dead, and it's getting swept under our American rug because it's a necessary sacrifice for gun-owning freedom. No, that's senseless. I don't want to be a part of that whatsoever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior
If you want to get a "thrill" as you mentioned, then lose a few pounds and buy a 1000cc motorbike.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
Dang! I never knew Jag had extra pounds http://www.motorsportforums.com/webk...AD8B8BE/oh.gif but I did know that being on a powerful motorbike is a pleasure that I have feasted on and yes, I did own a bee-bee gun when I was young and many birds have signed a petition to send me to bird hell when that time comes.
What I do know that has to be done (my personal opinion) as I contribute to reach our goal of a gazillion posts on this thread is that the second amendment of the USA's constitution should be allowed to - as it's name clearly states- to be amended: making the ownership of fire arms a privilege (not a right).
So you think people like anthonyvop would be able to do better? Really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
In which case, then, where does the problem lie?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
I don't think the solution should ever be found in turning such places (I live the army base aside for obvious reasons) into armed fortresses.
I don't feel it's what I have made it, but each to their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roamy
I've been on this message board for going on 13 years, Gloomy. Have you ever gotten the sense that there's anything shy about me or that I'm afraid of a discussion or criticism? ;) But I have no real desire to restate the exact same opinion that I've expressed dozens of times in dozens of threads when this exact same topic has come up before. It always starts the same way and it always ends the same way. What is this, like an episode of Lost? No, because even Jacob said, "It only ends once." This will just go on & on & on & on (& on!!!) until someone finally snaps and Mark or Pino have to close the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by gloomyDAY
Look, at this stage of the game, I pretty much know who thinks what. And I assume that anyone who has been here for more than 30 days knows what I think on this topic. Would it tickle your ivories to hear me regurgitate it again? Ask away. What would you like to know about my positions and thoughts on the NRA, gun control, so called assault weapons, etc.??? I have opinions on those topics, as well as what I think is the ideal bra size and hip/waist ratio for women. I'll discuss anything that won't cause Mark to have to ban me before my 13th "birthday"... he's getting me a cake this year and there are going to be pony rides! Yeeeah dawg! I can't wait! :bounce:
I actually owned a 1200cc motorcycle once upon a time. It was a 70-something Harley-Davidson (Hardly-Ableson) Sportster. I remember it starting... once or twice. Real piece of junk. That was back in the AMF days. But you're probably talking about one of those boy-racer, wannabe sport bike, crotch-rocket thingies. I hate those things. I have no use for them. And I'm not into bikes anymore anyway - I had a taste for a Kawasaki GPZ 750 Turbo waaaay back when... then my brain got fully developed and I've stuck to fast cars and hot womens (or is it hot cars and fast womens?) ever since. But if that's how you get your thrill on Strawberry Hill, go for it, my man. My basic approach to most things is this: To each his own. Buy a Rottweiler to play with your kids if you want to. As long as he doesn't eat my cat or crap in my yard, I honestly do not care what other people do with their time and money.Quote:
If you want to get a "thrill" as you mentioned, then lose a few pounds and buy a 1000cc motorbike.
Oh, my weight is actually just fine - thanks for your concern though. I went and got myself darn healthy this year, after a couple of major scares over the past couple of years. And if you'd like to do a bench press contest for say, $100, I'd be game. I could use some duckets... the TV stand that I had to buy for that new plasma, on top of the new dishwasher, dug into my account a bit. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.
There's really no "should be" to amending the 2nd Amendment... or any of the other amendments. The long established amendment process for accomplishing that isn't any different for the 2nd than it would be for the 1st or the 15th. It's right there. Easy squeezy.Quote:
Originally Posted by race aficionado
But considering the attitudes of the American people toward firearms these days, the chances of accomplishing that are about the same as my chance of getting that job with Cosworth Racing back in the 90's - in fact, my chances were probably better. I still didn't get it though. Damn them! If only we could wish for what we want to happen and it would happen, the world would be so much more interesting, eh? :)
fixed it, teehee :andrea: :pQuote:
Originally Posted by BDunnell
I'd mentioned earlier our schools have had resource police officers for years. Teachers and students are quite used to them being in the school. I thought in a school with two full time police officers and was actually quite comfortable with them present.Quote:
Originally Posted by Prisoner Monkeys
There will be civil unrest the day the federal government tries to enter and forcibly remove firearms from law abiding citizens.Quote:
Originally Posted by ioan