People Power

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Point well-made, but I instinctively don't like this modern use of the phrase 'adding value'. I have no idea what it means, and suspect it is difficult to define precisely in financial terms.

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"Value Added" is the difference between the written price of a good or service, once an input process has been done to it.

Blank Piece of Kryptonite = š15
Drilling of Kryptonite
Sale Price of Krypto-Widget = š20
Value Added = š5

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Originally Posted by Rollo

"Value Added" is the difference between the written price of a good or service, once an input process has been done to it.

Blank Piece of Kryptonite = š15
Drilling of Kryptonite
Sale Price of Krypto-Widget = š20
Value Added = š5

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Of course, but we do now hear the term being used in a very vague way, with no idea of specific figures involved.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What, in effect, you are saying is that those of us who state quite categorically that jealousy is not our motivation for highlighting the wage gap are liars. Would I be correct?

Again, I say that not everyone worships money and those with it.

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Yes, every person in this world is a liar. We have all lied at some stage of our lives. If someone says otherwise, they are lying.

People will not use the word jealousy as jealousy is not a reason to change anything or justify getting something someone else has. They rather use words like unfair, unacceptable, unjustified, oppression etc instead to justify/propose alternatives to getting things themselves and/or making their own positions in life better.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

if you want hard work to be rewarded then you should want a more equal society.

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No, you want people to work harder to progress.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Yes, every person in this world is a liar. We have all lied at some stage of our lives. If someone says otherwise, they are lying.

People will not use the word jealousy as jealousy is not a reason to change anything or justify getting something someone else has. They rather use words like unfair, unacceptable, unjustified, oppression etc instead to justify/propose alternatives to getting things themselves and/or making their own positions in life better.

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You have a downbeat view of your fellow humans, don't you? Of course it is true that everyone lies, but I would not go so far as to call everyone a liar, reserving that term instead for certain circumstances. It would be a bit tough to say that someone is a liar if they say they've cleaned the bathroom floor when they haven't. I don't think such a thing merits such aggressive language.

But playing along with you, do you think in this instance that those of us who say jealousy is not an underlying motivation for our views are lying when we say so? And are you a psychologist?

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

No, you want people to work harder to progress.

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What does that mean? Progress professionally? Personally? Allow their employer to 'progress' in financial terms?

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

People will not use the word jealousy as jealousy is not a reason to change anything or justify getting something someone else has. They rather use words like unfair, unacceptable, unjustified, oppression etc instead to justify/propose alternatives to getting things themselves and/or making their own positions in life better.

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Wage negotiations by their nature operate within imperfect markets. There is a difference in power between employers who are generally price makers and potential employees who having nothing to offer but labour are price takers.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Wage negotiations by their nature operate within imperfect markets. There is a difference in power between employers who are generally price makers and potential employees who having nothing to offer but labour are price takers.

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And who, thus, have little or no chance of ever moving on to become an employer themselves, having been at the bottom of the pile for so long. Only those with a romanticised notion of the free market would disagree.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

No, you want people to work harder to progress.

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The greater the inequality the lower the social mobility.
As income differences widen social mobility slows.

How do hard workers progress?

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

The greater the inequality the lower the social mobility.
As income differences widen social mobility slows.

How do hard workers progress?

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By being smart. It's not a difficult concept ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

What does that mean? Progress professionally? Personally? Allow their employer to 'progress' in financial terms?

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To progress in every aspect of their lives.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

To progress in every aspect of their lives.

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Clearly it does not follow that this progress is always accompanied by commensurate wage increases.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And who, thus, have little or no chance of ever moving on to become an employer themselves, having been at the bottom of the pile for so long. Only those with a romanticised notion of the free market would disagree.

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That is a defeatest attitude.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

That is a defeatest attitude.

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It is a realistic attitude.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Clearly it does not follow that this progress is always accompanied by commensurate wage increases.

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Like I posted earlier, people can find a way to earn more or live with what they have. I also posted that people don't appreciate what they already have, if they did, they would realise how lucky they really are and stop moaning/protesting.

Like I also said, people are jealous creatures and want what the Joneses have next door.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It is a realistic attitude.

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It is realistic only if you let it be. I don't expect you to understand the concept.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

That is a defeatest attitude.

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It's probably more preferable to "the American Dream" where anybody can become President*

(*provided they're rich, well-connected, or son of a former President)

It's good to dream, but pointless being unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Like I posted earlier, people can find a way to earn more or live with what they have. I also posted that people don't appreciate what they already have, if they did, they would realise how lucky they really are and stop moaning/protesting.

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Even if, in truth, they are entitled to more — say if they actually work harder, more effectively or whatever than someone in the same job who, for some reason, is paid more?

No, if people have a legitimate grievance, they should carry on complaining until it is righted. My internet radio doesn't work properly. I'm not about to stop hounding the company in relation to their blatantly faulty product on the grounds that I should be grateful to them for having made it available in the first place.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Like I also said, people are jealous creatures and want what the Joneses have next door.

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Of course everyone suffers moments of jealousy. But, yet again, I must point out that not everyone is obsessed with material possessions, and therefore not jealous of those held by others. Is this such a hard concept to grasp?

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

It is realistic only if you let it be. I don't expect you to understand the concept.

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This works both ways, believe me.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

It's probably more preferable to "the American Dream" where anybody can become President*

(*provided they're rich, well-connected, or son of a former President)

It's good to dream, but pointless being unrealistic.

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Quite.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

By being smart. It's not a difficult concept ;)

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No, it's not but why is it so hard to grasp the fact that more equal countries have higher social mobility meaning that hard & smart work is more likely to be rewarded than at present.

At the moment inequality in society is increasing.

Why do you appear to be so opposed to working towards a more equal society when the evidence says we would all benefit?

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Originally Posted by Dave B

It's probably more preferable to "the American Dream" where anybody can become President*

(*provided they're rich, well-connected, or son of a former President)

It's good to dream, but pointless being unrealistic.

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Obama was neither rich nor the son of a former President.

Being Well Connected is necessary to be successful in almost any endeavor and is the product of the person themselves. You can get connections through family but it is the individual who has to maintain them.

So Yes......Any American can still become President

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And who, thus, have little or no chance of ever moving on to become an employer themselves, having been at the bottom of the pile for so long. Only those with a romanticised notion of the free market would disagree.

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That is a defeatist ideal supported by leftist policies to control the masses. No matter how bleak you predicament you have a chance to better your life.

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

That is a defeatist ideal supported by leftist policies to control the masses. No matter how bleak you predicament you have a chance to better your life.

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As for the first sentence there, it's not that at all, but founded in simple fact and the limitations of human beings. The second half of your statement I wholeheartedly agree with. I do not believe the fact of not everybody having the chance to rise to the top means that no-one can better themselves — not for one moment. But bettering oneself if one is starting from a low point may not see one rising very far.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't mean to sound rude, but my reaction to this is 'so what?' I work a lot of what could be classed as overtime without being paid any extra, yet I don't go on about it.

And I too believe that people are the masters of their own destiny, etc, etc. But it is possible to behave like you do, being industrious and hard-working, to think all of this and still believe that the growing gap between rich and poor is a problem. To me, there is nothing contradictory about this at all.

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Well said. Fully agree with that. :up:

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

In fact, one look at the flag next to your name ought to tell anyone that this is unlikely to be the case.

What we see in play here is the expectation on the part of some people that certain opinions have to go with certain others, and that never the twain shall meet. If you don't mind me taking you as an example, ioan, you are someone who has obviously benefited from the free market, so therefore these people expect you also to believe that it should be allowed to go about its business completely unfettered. The fact you don't think this they seem in some way to find troubling, throwing accusations of hypocrisy/inconsistency around and suchlike.

When right-wingers who believe in a free market complain about immigration, now that IS hypocrisy in my book.

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It did benefit me a lot, you are right.
And I am certainly someone who thinks that the better qualified and harder working ones have to get a better paycheck, however the difference needs to be realistic and explainable, and this is not the case in today's economy.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

No, you want people to work harder to progress.

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What does that mean? Progress professionally? Personally? Allow their employer to 'progress' in financial terms?

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The last one seems realistic.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

To progress in every aspect of their lives.

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Impossible, the employee can not advance his personal life while continuously working harder for you.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

It is realistic only if you let it be. I don't expect you to understand the concept.

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Ben was realistic, not everyone can become an employer cause then there will be no more employees, thus no one will be an employer anymore. Oh well...

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Obama was neither rich nor the son of a former President.

Being Well Connected is necessary to be successful in almost any endeavor and is the product of the person themselves. You can get connections through family but it is the individual who has to maintain them.

So Yes......Any American can still become President

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Obama probably also went to a private school as well didn't he?

You may recall that during the 2004 presidential campaign that John Kerry was running against W. Kerry is part of the Forbes family and married to Teresa Heinz. During the campaign I remember that someone said that if elected Kerry would continue the trend that if adjusted for inflation, he would have been the 9th consecutive president to have been the richest president from private wealth in history. Obama bucks the trend but he still didn't start on the bottom rung did he?

Your claim that American can still become President simply isn't true. I very much doubt that the likes of a Haberdasher will ever be president ever again. Maybe once upon a time past but not anymore.

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Originally Posted by Dave B

It's good to dream, but pointless being unrealistic.

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Hear hear :up:

We don't have a "British Dream" over here. And this isn't because we lack any sort of morale purpose, or because we haven't got a sense of guide and destiny taking us towards a better tomorrow.
No. We British don't have a "Dream". Because we're awake.
- Al Murray, Pub Landlord

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Originally Posted by ioan

Impossible, the employee can not advance his personal life while continuously working harder for you.

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Maybe you can't but people smarter than you can.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Obama probably also went to a private school as well didn't he?

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Yes he did...With an Academic scholarship. Not because of any family wealth or connections. So I still maintain that anyone can be President of the United States.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

No, it's not but why is it so hard to grasp the fact that more equal countries have higher social mobility meaning that hard & smart work is more likely to be rewarded than at present.

At the moment inequality in society is increasing.

Why do you appear to be so opposed to working towards a more equal society when the evidence says we would all benefit?

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I don't have any problem with an equal society at all if people contribute positively. I am oppossed to just handing over more to lazy people who are disrupting our societies with protests instead of working to improve our society and/or their positions. Nothing in life is easy, it takes hard work and perseverance, that's just the way it is. Protesting about it will not change it, it just puts you another day behind those that bother to improve themselves. You have to have poor people and rich people, that is the driving force in our society that motivates one to improve. Millions of people who bother to try come from poor/oppressed to rich/liberated because they said, "bugger this, I want to improve my life". They didn't do it by standing in a park shouting, "this aint fair".

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Originally Posted by ioan

Impossible, the employee can not advance his personal life while continuously working harder for you.

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I managed to do it. And it was not easy! Believe me, it sucked, but I did it. So what's the excuse now :)

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Originally Posted by anthonyvop

That is a defeatist ideal supported by leftist policies to control the masses. No matter how bleak you predicament you have a chance to better your life.

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Very good post :up:

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Originally Posted by ioan

Ben was realistic, not everyone can become an employer cause then there will be no more employees, thus no one will be an employer anymore. Oh well...

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Correct, not everyone can become an employer. But as I mentioned in an earlier post, if someone is not happy with their present situation they can either leave for greaner pastures or suck it up and stop moaning. The choice is the individuals.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Obama probably also went to a private school as well didn't he?

You may recall that during the 2004 presidential campaign that John Kerry was running against W. Kerry is part of the Forbes family and married to Teresa Heinz. During the campaign I remember that someone said that if elected Kerry would continue the trend that if adjusted for inflation, he would have been the 9th consecutive president to have been the richest president from private wealth in history. Obama bucks the trend but he still didn't start on the bottom rung did he?

Your claim that American can still become President simply isn't true. I very much doubt that the likes of a Haberdasher will ever be president ever again. Maybe once upon a time past but not anymore.



Hear hear :up:

We don't have a "British Dream" over here. And this isn't because we lack any sort of morale purpose, or because we haven't got a sense of guide and destiny taking us towards a better tomorrow.
No. We British don't have a "Dream". Because we're awake.
- Al Murray, Pub Landlord

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When the German war machine was flying over Britain to bomb the cr@p out of it during the second world war, did the British say "...well we are f@#$*# so lets go home", or did they do something about it? Even when all hope seems lost, there is a way if there is a will.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

When right-wingers who believe in a free market complain about immigration, now that IS hypocrisy in my book.

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They do not and never have.
They complain about illegal aliens.
I think you are smart enough to know the difference.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Please explain why. The fact that your father earned less than the average does not necessarily prove that the average is wrong. Maybe you might like to explain your alternative view of how the term 'average' works.

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Let us put it this way son.

I started working in the late sixties. I knew what average wages were paid to the absolute vast majority of hourly U.S. workers. (We were taught those things in school back then. Our teachers said if you want to work in a factory and get rich, work in Detroit)


They had rejected a union. they had tried for a short time, and it was known (and protested by the union that their pay was what it was just to keep the union out) they received higher than average pay, JUST to keep the union out.


For anyone, anyone who is not simply too young to know, to not know that people were not paid almost twenty dollars an hour in 1965, or that that amount could even BE ANYWHERE NEAR the average.
That person is either a moron, or has serious mental health problems.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I don't have any problem with an equal society at all if people contribute positively.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

I am oppossed to just handing over more to lazy people who are disrupting our societies with protests instead of working to improve our society and/or their positions.

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That makes a very big assumption that those protesting at what they perceive to be an injustice are all lazy. Also, as has already been pointed out, as inequality increases the oppotunities for people to improve their positions declines.

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Nothing in life is easy, it takes hard work and perseverance, that's just the way it is.

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:up:

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Originally Posted by 555-04Q2

Protesting about it will not change it, it just puts you another day behind those that bother to improve themselves.

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So the movements personified by the likes of Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela shouldn't have protested? They should have just tried to improve themselves as individuals and left other individuals to try to do the same? Every man for himself?