Team orders at Ferrari

What I interpreted it as: let the guy come through without ramming him like Vettel did in Turkey.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

There was no call over the radio to McLaren, there was to Ferrari. McLaren benefited as their driver went on to win, Ferrari already had 1st place and literally could not improve. No other team complained at the time about Heikki's move. Heikki appears to have acted independently, whereas everybody heard Smedley on the radio to Massa. The stewards did not investigate McLaren, presumably because they didn't feel there was a case to answer, and because they didn't feel it was a team order.

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There was a radio call but not aired publicly. McLaren and along with Ferrari didn't like their radios being aired public. Heikki was told Lewis was quicker.

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Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Edit: the notion (above) that Ferrari's 1-2 was under threat from Vettel holds little water, as Vettel only began to close up on Massa once the demotivated Brazillian put in a series of mediocre laps. Until the team order, Ferrari owned that race. And that's what makes it worse.

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The radio call was a delayed transmission, originally about 20 laps previously from the TV transmission when Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel at the beginning of the second stint.

Idiots, the hearing to decide the fate of Ferrari is on september the 8th. Sure no rush, why not wait till the end of the season? Why can't they gather now? a penalty after 2 months isn't good PR. if there is any, probably not...

Ferrari cleverly sent in Jean todt to head FIA..so what do you think/ ? rules are for all teams and not ferrari, they are above the rules, anyone say a word against their illegalities will face angry outbursts from chief luca di marshmallows.. so 65K penalty probbaly cost of their front tyres for ferrari..nothing going to hurt them, sickning team orders still be going on and they dont care of they win championship by illegalities..the tifosi mentality is win at all costs.

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Originally Posted by rohanweb

Ferrari cleverly sent in Jean todt to head FIA..so what do you think/ ? rules are for all teams and not ferrari, they are above the rules, anyone say a word against their illegalities will face angry outbursts from chief luca di marshmallows.. so 65K penalty probbaly cost of their front tyres for ferrari..nothing going to hurt them, sickning team orders still be going on and they dont care of they win championship by illegalities..the tifosi mentality is win at all costs.

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And how clever are they to cover it up by penalizing them over and over again. And now changing the test loads in an attempt to avoid their wings from passing the tests. No one would suspect a thing :laugh:

The Ferrari International Assistance has closed its business. It shows just how out of depth are you... just keep singing the same song no matter what

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6...ri-for-hearing

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The stewards declared Ferrari in breach of article 39.1 of the FIA 2010 sporting regulations that states 'team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited.'
They were also charged with a breach of article 151c of the FIA International Sporting Code.
That relates to 'any fraudulent conduct, or any act prejudicial to the interests of any competition or to the interests of motor sport generally'.

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More fuel to the fire:

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http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...-order-charge/

But new radio evidence would seem to reinforce suspicions that the "is faster than you" language was in fact a pre-arranged code that Massa understood as a direct order to pull over.

F1's official website has published a video edit of the German race that depicts Smedley relay a conventional message to Massa about Spaniard Alonso's superior pace.

"You need to pick up the pace, because Fernando is faster," the British engineer is heard to tell Massa.

And another message to Massa during their genuine on-track battle was: "Pretty close here. He's (Alonso) gonna go (through); you're going to have to defend."

It has also been suspected that Alonso requested the team order, after he said "this is ridiculous" while trying to conventionally overtake his teammate.

And he is heard to say during the official video edit: "I am much faster than Felipe."

His engineer Andrea Stella replied: "We got your message, we got your message."

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Not only do I approve of team orders but if I ran a team I would send team orders encoded in nonsense sentences like the BBC used in WW II. Each race, the code would change. I would even use that old WW II favorite "John has a long moustache".

To make things even more amusing, over the course of a race I would broadcast a lot of sentences that meant nothing to anybody just to keep other teams, the media, and the FIA all ramped up and excited.

The cow jumped over the moon...Red is black...The pantry is full...Our feet are dry...

Transmissions to and from the driver would be acknowledged only with "copy that."

What a hoot!

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Originally Posted by Fiero 5.7

Not only do I approve of team orders but if I ran a team I would send team orders encoded in nonsense sentences like the BBC used in WW II. Each race, the code would change. I would even use that old WW II favorite "John has a long moustache".

To make things even more amusing, over the course of a race I would broadcast a lot of sentences that meant nothing to anybody just to keep other teams, the media, and the FIA all ramped up and excited.

The cow jumped over the moon...Red is black...The pantry is full...Our feet are dry...

Transmissions to and from the driver would be acknowledged only with "copy that."

What a hoot!

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Love it :laugh:

"Squadron leader to Sh!tehawk.... DIVE, DIVE"

Is now code for "Box next lap"

and

"Baby, can you hear me, grin and bear it Baby, i t ' s . K Y . j e l l y . t i m e . a g a i n. Can you confirm you've applied it and have assumed the position"

Is code for nothing whatsoever apparently ;)

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Originally Posted by wedge

More fuel to the fire:

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But still no definitive proof, it is just radio transmissions confirming information.

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

But still no definitive proof, it is just radio transmissions confirming information.

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There is never going to be definitive proof for you.

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Originally Posted by skc

Love it :laugh:

"Squadron leader to Sh!tehawk.... DIVE, DIVE"

Is now code for "Box next lap"

and

"Baby, can you hear me, grin and bear it Baby, i t ' s . K Y . j e l l y . t i m e . a g a i n. Can you confirm you've applied it and have assumed the position"

Is code for nothing whatsoever apparently ;)

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Allo! Allo! please listen carefully because I will only repeat this once. "Don't cross the chickens before you come to your bridges"

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Originally Posted by DexDexter

There is never going to be definitive proof for you.

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And where is your proof?

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Originally Posted by henners88

Well if an admission from Ferrari's president, and the team taking the 'team orders is our right' stance is not enough for you, then you are on your own on that one. You must be the only person on the planet who does not think it was team orders, and the fact you don't even believe your favourite team when they admit it, is frankly confusing to say the least. :eek:

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Nobody has admitted to anything.

You need to read more carefully, I think. Luca did not say that Ferrari had used team-orders in Germany....as a matter of fact he did not use the phrase at all.

"I simply reaffirm what I have always maintained, which is that our drivers are very well aware, and it is something they have to stick to, that if one races for Ferrari, then the interests of the team come before those of the individual.
"In any case, these things have happened since the days of Nuvolari and I experienced it myself when I was Sporting Director, in the days of Niki Lauda and not just then."
He added: "Therefore enough of this hypocrisy, even if I can well believe that some people might well have liked to see our two drivers eliminate one another, but that is definitely not the case for me or indeed for our fans."

"I am very happy for all our fans who finally, yesterday, saw two Ferraris lead from start to finish as they dominated the race," he explained.
"The result is down to the efforts of all our people, who never give up. Now we have to continue working like this, to improve the car so that is competitive at all the circuits we will encounter.
"Alonso and Massa also did very well, giving their all throughout the weekend."


No admission anywhere.


http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85587


I am nice, I even provide for you an English site as a link so no need to learn my language.


So, per favore, please supply evidence of proof that Ferrari have admitted to using team-orders at Hockenheim and that Luca has said so.

Proof, per favore.

Without this, what you say is not true.

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think I'll maintain my view with the majority of people and take Luca's carefully worded statement for what it is.

Ferrari's drivers are well aware that the team comes first before that of the individual on the basis that the driver with the most points is allowed through to collect maximum points. Or in other words, "Team Orders". Even if we did not have the blatantly obvious radio messages, we all know it was discussed in their drivers briefing. We know full well Alonso did not overtake Massa through pure pace.

These 'things' have happened since the days of Nuvolari. What do you think he means by 'these things'? Do you think he might mean teammates letting each other through for the good of the team like in the first statement? Or in other words "Team Orders".

Thanks for the quote. :)

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I think an order contains the actual command. Something like this: Massa baby your are slow. Do you understand me? No, I don't. Massa baby, Alonso is right in your butt. You need to let him pass. Ah, ok then. Got it.

Now if you think their BS is of an inferior quality then the McLaren´s... well that a different story :p .

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Originally Posted by eu

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

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Bingo!

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Originally Posted by eu

So they have team orders. Good for them! All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

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Totally agree! Too bad none of the other teams have team orders! ;)

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Totally agree! Too bad none of the other teams have team orders! ;)

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If they would, will the so called No2 driver obey? I referring to the to teams, perhaps exept renualt.

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Originally Posted by Mia 01

If they would, will the so called No2 driver obey? I referring to the to teams, perhaps exept renualt.

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At this stage in the season without a doubt!

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Originally Posted by henners88

Or in other words "Team Orders".

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Those are your words, not anyone from Ferrari.

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Originally Posted by henners88

Thanks for the quote. :)

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You are welcome, although why you thank me for showing that you are not being truthful, I do not know.

Grazie for proving that you have no proof, just made-up allegations you want to believe.

That is not proof.

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Originally Posted by eu

So they have team orders. Good for them!

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Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

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Originally Posted by eu

All these complaints are nothing but sour grapes from people who can´t stand to see this team taking the maximum result from one race.

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Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

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I think he was referring to both championships, but you know that. eu makes a good point. If the shoe was on the other foot I think we would hear the others singing Ferrari's song. Ferrari has been penalized. However I suspect further sanction is coming. As is usually the case in this situation I suspect the WSRC to make its decision based partly on the results of Spa.
F1 you have to love it. ;)

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

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1. Massa's pace was compromising.

2. They have also been charged with Article 151c of the 2010 international sporting code, which is an utter joke: "any act prejudicial to the interests of competition or the interests of motorsport generally"

Because

A) Alonso will make the WDC a 5-way fight instead of RBR vs McLaren and therefore how can that be prejudicial to the interests of competition?

B) Team orders has been part of motorsport as a whole so how can that be against the interests of motorsport generally?

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Originally Posted by Tazio

I think he was referring to both championships, but you know that. eu makes a good point. If the shoe was on the other foot I think we would hear the others singing Ferrari's song. Ferrari has been penalized. However I suspect further sanction is coming. As is usually the case in this situation I suspect the WSRC to make its decision based partly on the results of Spa.
F1 you have to love it. ;)

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I do hope Ferrari don't get penalised further but I think the WMSC may feel the need to act. It was such a crass move that they almost have to be seen to do something.

We all know the rules are bloody stupid and all teams employ team orders in a subtle way. Why oh why did Ferrari make it so clumsy? The viewing public want to see a race where the most deserving pilot wins, not someone being gifted a win he has no right to. That's the problem.

However silly the rules are, they are still the rules until they are changed and I fear there may be more sanctions.

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Originally Posted by skc

I do hope Ferrari don't get penalised further but I think the WMSC may feel the need to act. It was such a crass move that they almost have to be seen to do something.

We all know the rules are bloody stupid and all teams employ team orders in a subtle way. Why oh why did Ferrari make it so clumsy? The viewing public want to see a race where the most deserving pilot wins, not someone being gifted a win he has no right to. That's the problem.

However silly the rules are, they are still the rules until they are changed and I fear there may be more sanctions.

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But here is the part of the equation that throws a :monkeedan wrench into the whole shooting match. As sad as it is for me to admit, F1 the business is what is at the bottom of this decision. So you say that the sanctions will come because the "enthusiasts" demand a fair outcome. I wonder how many "think tanks" right now are trying to decide what the best solution for bottom line economics is. Ferrari worldwide are probably the biggest draw by a large margin. So do you go for integrity or the almighty buck?
Remember this is F1 and Bernie.
Just something to ponder.

There is no right answer. Lots of wrong ones but bugger all correct options.

Allow eam orders and fans think the series is fixed. People turn off.

Ban team orders and everyone still does it until someone does something silly. People turn off.

Seems that if you have 2 dogs in a team, you is gonna have team orders.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Not the view of the FIA rulebook.

Ferrari the team were already taking the maximum result with Massa leading and Alonso second. They wanted to maximise the WDC chances of one of their drivers and engineered this through the use of, according to the FIA stewards, team orders which are prohibited according to article 39.1 of the sporting regulations.

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And your point is that teams only care for the wcc because that´s the one for them? Come on..

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think we are all over the fact that it was team orders, and sour grapes doesn't really come into it for me because it was going to be a Ferrari win anyway, team orders or not. :)


:eek:

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wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

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Originally Posted by wedge

1. Massa's pace was compromising.

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To Alonso maybe.
Vettel never managed to catch Felipe once they were in direct competition for 2nd place.
But hey, don't let the facts stand in your own reality's way.

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Originally Posted by wedge

A) Alonso will make the WDC a 5-way fight instead of RBR vs McLaren and therefore how can that be prejudicial to the interests of competition?

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Is an illegal rigged competition still a competition?
I guess it depends on the opinion holder's POV and his/her ethical ground.

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Originally Posted by eu

wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

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Load of BS.
The money is paid by FOM in function of the constructors championship standings, most teams only care about the WCC.

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Originally Posted by skc

There is no right answer. Lots of wrong ones but bugger all correct options.

Allow eam orders and fans think the series is fixed. People turn off.

Ban team orders and everyone still does it until someone does something silly. People turn off.

Seems that if you have 2 dogs in a team, you is gonna have team orders.

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Yes - it's not easy. But if both drivers get the WDC title then team orders are not needed..

E.g. Rubens has a big part in Schumachers carrier, without all team orders would Schumi never have so many titles.

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Originally Posted by eu

wrong. no one cares who wins the wcc. It´s the wdc the one that matters. The fact that Ferrari got the maximum result for both championships is really irritating.

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Dietrich Mateschitz openly stated last year when he attacked Renault that it had cost RBR the Constructirs title and that THAT title is the most iimportant to him.

Do you suppose that Mclaren hired Button to win the WDC because perhaps Lewis was not up to it? Of course not.

Whitmarsh stated that they hired Jenson because his view is that both drivers have different strengths that will show when the others' weakness does - and it has been that way - in order for Mclaren to win the Constructors title.

Ron Dennis openly has a preference for the Constructors.

Ferrari cat say that Alonso won the title in a Ferrari, but if they win the Constructors, then FERRARI is the champion. Period.

And then there is the little matter of money that is allocated depending upon how the teams end in the title table too.

Do not dismiss the importance of this title that is only eight years younger than the WDC to all the people in formula 1.

Unlike any other series, f1 is a constructors championship that sees the mst incrediblly brilliant people using the most advanced technology to the point of invention.

To your last point - it is fantastic when Ferrari do well. It is great for motor racing. I am not a tifosi but when it looks like a Ferrari is going to win, the sight of those most beautiful throughbred racing cars always makes me emotional.

And when a Ferrari is not victorius at the Monza Park Autodromo then there is always something wrong with the world :D

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Dietrich Mateschitz openly stated last year when he attacked Renault that it had cost RBR the Constructirs title and that THAT title is the most iimportant to him.

Do you suppose that Mclaren hired Button to win the WDC because perhaps Lewis was not up to it? Of course not.

Whitmarsh stated that they hired Jenson because his view is that both drivers have different strengths that will show when the others' weakness does - and it has been that way - in order for Mclaren to win the Constructors title.

Ron Dennis openly has a preference for the Constructors.

Ferrari cat say that Alonso won the title in a Ferrari, but if they win the Constructors, then FERRARI is the champion. Period.

And then there is the little matter of money that is allocated depending upon how the teams end in the title table too.

Do not dismiss the importance of this title that is only eight years younger than the WDC to all the people in formula 1.

Unlike any other series, f1 is a constructors championship that sees the mst incrediblly brilliant people using the most advanced technology to the point of invention.

To your last point - it is fantastic when Ferrari do well. It is great for motor racing. I am not a tifosi but when it looks like a Ferrari is going to win, the sight of those most beautiful throughbred racing cars always makes me emotional.

And when a Ferrari is not victorius at the Monza Park Autodromo then there is always something wrong with the world :D

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This is not only an eloquent narrative; it is true in its entirety IMO. Those that do not think the WCC is the primary objective of F1 teams just have not been:
A) Following it long enough, or
A) Are with good reason because of their life experience (age) caught up in the current culture of idol worship and all the tabloid trappings that benefit from it. It is easy to lose sight of how many great team players there have been in distinctly team sports. I applaud F1 for rewarding, and considering the WCC
as the ultimate prize at least financially.
But this is rightly due.
I also believe times have changed and all enthusiasts are probably more inclined to pull for a pilot more than a team. I know I do, and judging by what I read on this forum so does everyone else old-timer or youngster.
I don't hold out much hope for a Ferrari victory at Monza this season, but I have enough of them recorded to ease the disappointment if they don't. It's something about that mass of humanity crowding around the podium that is the stuff dreams are made of! :s ailor:

It is possible that when a racesorder is manipulated, these guys might have something to say. : http://www.oddschecker.com/motor-spo...s-championship

watch the episode of top gear with rubens barrichello
he makes it sound like they were going to fire him there and then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFMWJMZfNig

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Originally Posted by henners88

Quite true. I'm aware team orders are used at Mclaren, but they are a little more savvy in using them. :)

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So, for you, being better liars is more acceptable?

What a disgusting attitude!

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Originally Posted by pallone col bracciale

So, for you, being better liars is more acceptable?

What a disgusting attitude!

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Surely you are not suggesting thet Ferrari are lousy liars. :eek:

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Originally Posted by thunderbolt

watch the episode of top gear with rubens barrichello
he makes it sound like they were going to fire him there and then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFMWJMZfNig

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There is nothing wrong with this.

If you or I were to disobey an order from the boss, we should expect to be no longer employed.

Of course, there are times when to disobey is the correct thing to do, even if employment termination is the result. That is a matter for the conscience.

But Mr Barrichello did not disobey, he chose to keep his job, so his conscience cannot have been too troubled by the order.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Surely you are not suggesting thet Ferrari are lousy liars. :eek:

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Please read more carefully.