2008 Neste Oil Rally Finland - official thread

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3rd August 2008, 18:30
ste898

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torsen

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning... :

I think you got that wrong way round...

Being skillful in modern WRC car does'nt impress anyone..

Anyone that could drive a rear wheel drive or Group B car is a proper driver
3rd August 2008, 18:34
Nuts

Some photos:

http://www.nutspix.com/
3rd August 2008, 18:39
Helstar

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.T

As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....
Its called evolution

Yeah also SuperRally is an evolution ... you're so right. Also you are lying knowing you lie: 2 championship contenders LOL !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torsen

just because in your country people don't know who loeb is doesn't mean it takes ANYTHING away from him... thanks for letting us know about italian rally ignorance... :rolleyes:

Ah ah and look who's talking, most of USA people proudly thought WRC champion of the world was Pastrana ! Do me a favour, shut up next time :D
3rd August 2008, 18:41
Rani

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker

Why? Because the old rally cars were a lot more demanding, that's why.
If WRC continues this way, your "evolution" may end up with cars that don't require drivers at all.

Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.
3rd August 2008, 18:47
jonkka

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.

Cheers Rani!
3rd August 2008, 18:53
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torsen

yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...

i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:

The speed you are talking about comes from technology, not from driving skills. If that's your kind of rally, be my guest. Just don't use terms like "doesn't impress anyone", it doesn't sound right.
3rd August 2008, 18:56
gloomyDAY

Everyone needs to stop whining about Loeb.

Citroen have made a superior car to the competition.
Maybe the rule changes will even things out, but I doubt it! The cream will rise to the top and Seb will still take top honors. I'm happy for Loeb and his achievement. As I stated earlier I am also feeling a bit frustrated by the rest of the field wallowing behind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

Good point. Having just seen the pathetic excuse of an F1 driver that Kovalainen is, winning his first race in the must lucky way, you never know what might happen in Germany.

1) WRC and F1 are mutually exclusive sports. Why are you even mentioning what happened in Hungary as a parallel example of what happened in Finland? Pretty silly.

2) Kovy may have won by luck, but if it wasn't for his qualifying performance he would not have had the opportunity to win in the first place.

3) First of many for the Finn. Just watch buddy....
3rd August 2008, 19:01
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rani

Isn't this exactly what rival drivers said when Audi came out with AWD?

Progress happens, cars become faster and the best drivers still stand out from the rest by virtue of driving that little bit faster.

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.
3rd August 2008, 19:05
HaCo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker

What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning stirring wheel and braking.

And that is by far the most redeculous statement I have read today...
3rd August 2008, 19:07
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.

LOL!

I guess the cars literally do everything by themselves.

That or this man is driving the machine:

http://www.thehollywoodnews.com/artm.../1/robocop.jpg
3rd August 2008, 19:13
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker

And what's your point? Loeb is the best driver? That's fine, I don't dispute that. What I'm trying to say is, current WRCars require no other skills then turning steering wheel and braking, and that's less demanding.

What a load of rubbish. The best drivers of the time will always be the best drivers. If you transported Loeb back to the mid 80's he would definitely be up there with the best at the time.

If driving a WRCar is so easy then why are there people like Rautencrash and Wilson around?
3rd August 2008, 19:17
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

What a load of rubbish. The best drivers of the time will always be the best drivers. If you transported Loeb back to the mid 80's he would definitely be up there with the best at the time.

Not sure about that, not at all.
3rd August 2008, 19:17
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

Yes evolution. But ever since the subset of GpA which allows "World Rally Cars" to be built under much MUCH greater freedom, the cars, from shell to suspension strength, suspension TRAVEL!!! to gearboxes reliability---directly tied to REMOVING from the DRIVER the job of selecting gears---, to engine and especially turbocharger lifespan, the CARS are HUGELY, BIG GIANT STEPS improved over the early 90s Group A cars.

They are essentially purpose built competition cars in EVERY detail now, then they were BASED ON production body shells and with the limitations that comes with that.
Suspension was max about 200mm travel... now at least 275, maybe 300mm
suspension had to be attached to the body within +-15mm. No funny fenders if they weren't made in series for 5000 road cars,

I want to ask when people have such obvious contempt for the achievements of people who they may have never seen, and it goes without saying, doing things that the complainer has never been close to doing:
Have you EVER seen the early 90s ccars driven by WRC drivers?
Ever [i]touched any parts, spent an hour going through the Homologation papers seeing what the parts that make up the car are like?

WAAAAAAAAaaaay back then the stuff was "pretty damn good" and crazy expensive.........Today the CARS are near perfect (hence the less than 2.5% difference in the speed between the amazing Loeb and the depressed, seemingly washed up hang dog Petter Solhberg only 2.5%) and to use the words of SEVERAL men who, unlike you, actually have driven both ;
"The cars are almost perfect--they just about drive themselves now..."

Sainz, McRae, Mäkinen all have said this about the modern World Rally Cars.
And they might possibly know just a bit more than a mere nameless fan.

Another factor is the current regs allows such few cars to qualify, and are so specialised and with the "can't homologate any new stuff" very often that
virtually nobody but 6 guys have top works spec, way beack when TOP works spec ---was NOT THAT FAR AHEAD of what LOTS MORE PEOPLE could scrape together.

And as for Championship, that is SEASON LONG Championship, yeah that's one thing but who cares?
[b]On individual events there were lots of people fighting for top 25 places in cars MUCH NEARER in terms of speed THE CAR WAS CAPABLE OF.

Thus it was harder then beating 12-15-20 near equal cars than just beating 2.

All of which is fine and dandy gramps. But Loeb is still the best of the drivers out here at the moment. He put guys like McRae, Tommi, Sainz and co in the shade and none of them ever had a bad thing to say about him and his skill level. Perhaps the nameless fan is you? :laugh:

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much. If it were all so easy any twit with a few million dollars/pounds/euros off the street would be in the WRC and competing for victories. Funny thing is that it seems to be a lesser number of guys who can actually truly master WRCars and win rallies.
3rd August 2008, 19:40
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much

True, but who does that control? Most of that control is taken away from drivers and given to high tech devices, so you are testing the machine, not the driver.
3rd August 2008, 19:40
MJW

Quote:

Originally Posted by ste898

NOT if you cannot understand how it so so much easier to win these events now then you have a serious problem!!!!!

Events in 2000's 17-25 stages!!! Easy cars to drive (just about drive themselves)

Events in 80's and 90's anywhere between 35-55 stages 5 days and nights
no power steering and driver aids etc etc etc!!!!!!1

Get a grip man.....

Come on ste 898, I remember rallies from too long ago, and the modern rallies are all 100% commitment all the way, I was in Dalby on old RAC in 1988 on the last day and most of the field was in cruise to the finish mode. That does not happen any more. Surely we dont have 36 hours out of bed and drive around endurance rallies any more, nowadays its 3 days flat out commitment.
3rd August 2008, 19:41
N.O.T

According to many peoples logic....why is it that we have so few guys who can antagonise Loeb since the car became eaier to drive? and drive by themselves shouldn't that mean that more drivers would be competitive ????????????????
3rd August 2008, 19:42
cali

What a load of BS is going on here!!! Get real, this guy (Loeb) has broken all the records (remember, that in the beginning he was beating all the "great" drivers too). Good machinery + top talent + little bit of luck as well end you get this result. I do not think, that even Bosse could've stop him this time. Like Mikko said in the interviews, that they were going much faster than previous years (look at stage times + tyre disadvantage). And this back in the old days thing is hopless crying - every era has had some bright talents, but not as bright as this one!
3rd August 2008, 19:47
Miika

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

If driving a WRCar is so easy then why are there people like Rautencrash and Wilson around?

Cause they can afford to? Getting to drive a WRC car has got nothing to do with talent when a single rally with a rather new car costs about 200 000 € (like Rantanen´s drive in this year´s NORF).
3rd August 2008, 19:47
MikeD

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

1) WRC and F1 are mutually exclusive sports. Why are you even mentioning what happened in Hungary as a parallel example of what happened in Finland? Pretty silly.

Silly you!

I didn't mention it in relation to NORF. I mentioned it as an example that most fans expect Loeb to win on tarmac events to come - and todays crap F1 race in Hungary was a fine example that sometimes things goes in the exact opposite way. One of the slowest guys won, and the fast ones lost out.
3rd August 2008, 19:51
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miika

Cause they can afford to? Getting to drive a WRC car has got nothing to do with talent when a single rally with a rather new car costs about 200 000 € (like Rantanen´s drive in this year´s NORF).

What about Rautencrash? Why is he not winning? He has the money!
3rd August 2008, 19:55
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.T

According to many peoples logic....why is it that we have so few guys who can antagonise Loeb since the car became eaier to drive? and drive by themselves shouldn't that mean that more drivers would be competitive ????????????????

The answer is no. Currently WRC is testing Citroen against Ford. Citroen is winning because they have superior car in therms of technlology. And because there are only two teams that can afford that kind of thechnology, you can't realy test the drivers skills. Loeb is the best driver among Hirvonen, JML, and Sordo. That's it.
3rd August 2008, 19:57
N.O.T

and ford has how many cars in the championship ????????
3rd August 2008, 19:58
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by N.O.T

and ford has how many cars in the championship ????????

2
3rd August 2008, 19:58
cut the b.s.

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners

back then lots of people got to win, rallys were often won by several minutes, now the level to win has been raised, 1st by Gronholm and then by Loeb, heck Conrad might have had a shout on some events in the 80s!
Stats can be used to prove everything and nothing all at once, the fact is the best drivers win, the rest follow, and comments about how easy the cars are to drive? To a point this is true but only to a point, certainly wee Matty etc can make it look hard enough. And sideways driving? Anyone who has had the privilige to drive a well balanced and sorted car will know that it is easier to drift than to keep it clean and tidy
3rd August 2008, 20:01
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by jparker

2

ok.... :rolleyes:
3rd August 2008, 20:15
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners

you must also count that in the stone age with the 365 stages per day most of the wins came through problems of the leader and consistent driving....how many events of the stone events offered the excitement of rally NZ last year and Finand this year ??
3rd August 2008, 20:22
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by cut the b.s.

Its laughable how predictable it is that a Loeb victory will stir so much nonsense, as I have said before on here I think he should take it as a kind of backhanded complement!
You could argue that that it is harder to win on WRC now than it ever was before, the good 'ol days
85 12 events, 6 winners
86 13 events, 7 winners
95 8 events, 4 winners
compared to the bad new days
07 16 events, 3 winners
08 9 to date , 3 winners

back then lots of people got to win, rallys were often won by several minutes, now the level to win has been raised, 1st by Gronholm and then by Loeb, heck Conrad might have had a shout on some events in the 80s!
Stats can be used to prove everything and nothing all at once, the fact is the best drivers win, the rest follow, and comments about how easy the cars are to drive? To a point this is true but only to a point, certainly wee Matty etc can make it look hard enough. And sideways driving? Anyone who has had the privilige to drive a well balanced and sorted car will know that it is easier to drift than to keep it clean and tidy

This man speaks the truth.
3rd August 2008, 20:32
jparker

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

This man speaks the truth.

Yes, he does in terms of true statistics. The interpretation of this statistics however is very questionable. For some it proves one thing, for other completely different.
3rd August 2008, 20:36
cali

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

This man speaks the truth.

Read the last N.O.T.-s post and you see the reason behind it. Rallying has changed, but fast drivers will always be fast - just that one guy is inferior, like Schumi was in F1 (best car + talented driver). But behind it all is a hard work to develop a good car and getting comfortable with it. It's a work that Citroen and Loeb have mastered. That's it! I'm glad about Atko's pace - it gives me hope that just maybe we will see Subie again in the fight for top places. :cool:
3rd August 2008, 20:38
Daniel

Quote:

Originally Posted by cali

Read the last N.O.T.-s post and you see the reason behind it. Rallying has changed, but fast drivers will always be fast - just that one guy is inferior, like Schumi was in F1 (best car + talented driver). But behind it all is a hard work to develop a good car and getting comfortable with it. It's a work that Citroen and Loeb have mastered. That's it! I'm glad about Atko's pace - it gives me hope that just maybe we will see Subie again in the fight for top places. :cool:

I agree :) I don't think that Loeb is inferior to the other rallying gods that people speak of :)
3rd August 2008, 20:39
tmx

Quote:

Originally Posted by HaCo

Probably, but he'll be the closest to Loeb I think (maybe Sordo, mmmh) and eventually in front of him (although also very close), at least I hope so.

Last year Duval drove an Xsara. I am not really sure the Ford Focus will hold up the current C4 on tarmac for him to be able to fight for first place. And I was sure that it was Citroen internal plan for him to beat Marcus. I don't think it will be the same tactic here with Mikko fighting for championship. We'll just have to see. 1st or second place is tall expectation if he gets no testing.

Then we get the Subaru guys who said the car perform exceptionally on tarmac, we'll see if they are serious. The car does look to be more stable, if not fast.
3rd August 2008, 21:12
Woodeye

This forum is a bit silly. You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. There's no way that you can know it or you can even compare it. Different eras, different drivers etc... Personally I couldn't care less.

At the moment Loeb is the fastest man in WRC and the victory in Jyväskylä proved this. It was a great battle to the end and it was great to follow it live once again. :) Congrats to Seb and Daniel for the victory.

And here's my favorite link from the weekend: If Garde wouldn't saved this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJ...eature=related
3rd August 2008, 21:34
gloomyDAY

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeD

Silly you!

I didn't mention it in relation to NORF. I mentioned it as an example that most fans expect Loeb to win on tarmac events to come - and todays crap F1 race in Hungary was a fine example that sometimes things goes in the exact opposite way. One of the slowest guys won, and the fast ones lost out.

Oh, this wasn't related to NORF? I must be in the wrong thread. Apparently the title says "2008 Neste Oil Rally Finland Official Thread". Sorry for the mistake. :D

You're still wrong about Kovy in Hungary. He's never been slow and won his maiden race.
Is there such a thing as an underachieving winner?
I'm not sure if you're familiar with racing. These type of results tend to occur.
3rd August 2008, 21:40
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodeye

You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJ...eature=related

and you come here and spoil the fun...you boring, boring man....
3rd August 2008, 22:39
janvanvurpa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torsen

yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...

being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...

i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:

Torsen there's a nice post here somewhere where the (previous to this event) 5th in the Whole WORLD driver Dani Sordo, in an inarguable top car in a Finnish event entered to get Sordito a bit more time on the almost unique Finnish roads has 12th in the World Toni Gardemeister nipping at his heels and being as close as 1.4 sec/km to the times of Sordo in the WRC CITROEN.
Got that?
The interval was closer than usual for them.
Sordo in maybe the best WRC car.

Gardemeister was in his private, rwd BMW normal aspirated 6.

If YOU are not more impressed by Gardemeister's speed and style in that rwd Bmw so close to the current 5th in the World works driver in the best team, then you don't know what you're looking at.

For your record, the best Gp4 drivers in the stone-age rwd Escorts and Asconas and Fiat 131s etc average speed on stage was about 3mph slower than the best of the Group B super cars, a small difference visually.
Bear in mind that the same actual drivers were often in both the Gp4 cars and the GpB cars which replaced them. Single variable test.

You have NO IDEA how fast good rwd drivers were and still are.

If the flag by your name is correct, I can understand why you have no idea of what fast is because you've never seen FAST in USA.
If you think what you may have seen in USA is fast, reflect for a moment again on the placings or speed of Gardemeister and dozens of others similarly quick, and the results of the 2 drivers from SRTUSA when they've dared to enter WRC events.
3rd August 2008, 22:46
janvanvurpa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woodeye

This forum is a bit silly. You guys have been arguing now about 5 pages if Loeb is faster than the guys in 80's or not. It just might be that you can spend million more pages and still without any final agreement or conclution. There's no way that you can know it or you can even compare it. Different eras, different drivers etc... Personally I couldn't care less.

At the moment Loeb is the fastest man in WRC and the victory in Jyväskylä proved this. It was a great battle to the end and it was great to follow it live once again. :) Congrats to Seb and Daniel for the victory.

And here's my favorite link from the weekend: If Garde wouldn't saved this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW3PJ...eature=related

Oi oi oi I have put links to that on a couple of forums here in pooor neglected USA. It's times like that you rip the cloth off the seat with the butt-clench of the century! Saaaaataaaana!

But
I don't think anybody half serious would suggest that Loeb ISN'T the best now and has been for a while, no matter how much I like what I saw of Bosses personality.
I even said, we know he'll win unless there is some screw-up somewhere.

My point was he has just 2 very good but only 2 real threats and those 2 boys have less time than he at the top so less threat than at some times in the past when there was 10-12 equally experienced drivers in works cars.
3rd August 2008, 22:56
janvanvurpa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel

All of which is fine and dandy gramps. But Loeb is still the best of the drivers out here at the moment. He put guys like McRae, Tommi, Sainz and co in the shade and none of them ever had a bad thing to say about him and his skill level. Perhaps the nameless fan is you? :laugh:

I agree that the cars are different but the fundamentals of car control haven't changed all that much. If it were all so easy any twit with a few million dollars/pounds/euros off the street would be in the WRC and competing for victories. Funny thing is that it seems to be a lesser number of guys who can actually truly master WRCars and win rallies.

Well sonny boy, I've never suggested Loeb isn't the best guy out there.
Quite the opposite, laddie.

You can search and waste your time---you obviously have lots of it--- to find the statements from McCrae, and Sainz etc. It's there in the record about "they nearly drive themselves".

Your last bit: FEWER GOOD DRIVERS seem to be able to find a way into works seats IF THEY DON'T have MILLIONS of personal money from daddy or tolerant sponsors just because there are so many rich "Gentleman drivers" filling all the places aside from the works Fords, Citras and Subarus.
The paradigm of how whole operations are financed, and thus who GETS to drive has changed to the model which ruins all other car racing.

Quadrupling or more the cost of the cars and spares tends to weed out all but the well financed.
3rd August 2008, 23:11
Mickey T

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz Lightyear

its like schumacher writing off a ferrari road car 3 weeks ago on the notorious nurgenburg, then last week he had another road accident in a fiat van near silverstone... they think there are invincible on the roads as they are on the tracks.

schumacher was in the passenger seat of the ferrari at the nurburging.

i don't think you can blame him for that one.
4th August 2008, 03:10
ShiftingGears

Quote:

Originally Posted by ste898

I think you got that wrong way round...

Being skillful in modern WRC car does'nt impress anyone..

Except the people who appreciate drivers who have the talent to be faster than everyone else given any car.

Several people were blaming Loeb's advantage on active diffs in the WRC a few years ago. Since that was removed, he was still fastest. Coincidence? No.

FAST DRIVERS ARE FAST DRIVERS.

Quote:

Anyone that could drive a rear wheel drive or Group B car is a proper driver

I can drive a rear wheel drive car. Wheres my medal?
4th August 2008, 03:16
N.O.T

Quote:

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

Several people were blaming Loeb's advantage on active diffs in the WRC a few years ago. Since that was removed, he was still fastest. Coincidence? No.

and lets not forget the super fast secret michelin tyres only Loeb had to his disposal...

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