Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

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Originally Posted by ioan

The sponsors get 7 hours of world wide exposure every 2nd week, and that's why they pay, not for the sake of F1.

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I know but I think the issue for them is that it now includes something of an association with the certain character known as Max........and if the benefit does not outweigh the cost, they would be gone in a second or less. But clearly, while some of the PR has been unpleasant, it has not risen to the point that their products are being directly associated with the stuff of Max, or they would be already gone. And forgot not, this sport was proud to be the last bastion of sponsorship for tobacco (and at some races, it still is)

They care about the sport of F1 about as much as they care about some billboard on the side of some road in the middle of no where

Sort of like the words of a drug dealer, never get hooked on your own product

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Originally Posted by markabilly

But clearly, while some of the PR has been unpleasant, it has not risen to the point that their products are being directly associated with the stuff of Max, or they would be already gone. And forgot not, this sport was proud to be the last bastion of sponsorship for tobacco (and at some races, it still is)

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:up:

Absolutely right.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

I know but I think the issue for them is that it now includes something of an association with the certain character known as Max.

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That's only for the very few hardcore F1 fans who did indeed follow the vents closer, and even a part of those were on Mosley's side.

So yeah the positives outweigh by far the negatives ( I would say in a proportion of 99 : 1 at least) for the F1 sponsors.

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Originally Posted by markabilly

They care about the sport of F1 about as much as they care about some billboard on the side of some road in the middle of no where

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:up: ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And, to be honest, you have to wonder why recent events should bother them an awful lot.
................

Bernie is hardly a likable figurehead for the sport (ask most non-enthusiast people what they think of him and it's unlikely to be positive) and, as I always say, its brash displays of wealth no longer seem entirely appropriate in these financially difficult times.

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In fact, I have yet to come across a single comment in this forum that portrays Bernie even remotely as a likable identity. The closest I have seen to "likable" describe him as a greedy human waste byproduct.

I hope he stays a year or so - because he has been working for the sport and made a good job - I think that's not good if a scandal organised of a newspaper can decide who leads the FIA.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

In fact, I have yet to come across a single comment in this forum that portrays Bernie even remotely as a likable identity. The closest I have seen to "likable" describe him as a greedy human waste byproduct.

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Well, I'm not sure how good this or any forum is as a proper barometer of personal opinion, because there is a tendency to be inflammatory, but generally I think it's true that you won't hear too many positive comments about Bernie beyond 'successful'.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And, to be honest, you have to wonder why recent events should bother them an awful lot. Even without the Mosley scandal, it's not as if F1 always puts on its best or most appropriate face for the public. Bernie is hardly a likeable figurehead for the sport (ask most non-enthusiast people what they think of him and it's unlikely to be positive) and, as I always say, its brash displays of wealth no longer seem entirely appropriate in these financially difficult times. The prospect of recession is surely far more of a worry in terms of keeping sponsors than anything Max has done to F1's image.

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Bad publicity is still publicity.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Well, I'm not sure how good this or any forum is as a proper barometer of personal opinion, because there is a tendency to be inflammatory, but generally I think it's true that you won't hear too many positive comments about Bernie beyond 'successful'.

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Bernie is extremely intelligent, cunning and takes no prisoners in his approach. I admire all these qualities.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Bernie is extremely intelligent, cunning and takes no prisoners in his approach. I admire all these qualities.

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I don't automatically admire all these qualities, because I value other things much more highly, but I can understand why some think as you do.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't automatically admire all these qualities, because I value other things much more highly, but I can understand why some think as you do.

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Obviously, there are far more important characteristics of a person than those.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Obviously, there are far more important characteristics of a person than those.

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Sorry to maybe misunderstand you!

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Sure Knockie, there is consternation by the advertisers. I for one try to disconnect them from the sport.
Alas they are inextricably linked to television, and to my way of thinking have perverted all professional sports.
The idea of the Corporate-Mafia strong-arming any sport makes me cringe :dozey:

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Oh, I agree, but we have to look at the bigger picture.

Max and Bernie have been playing tennis with the sport of F1 for way toooooo long now.

Max gives Bernie the commercial rights for a fraction of what they were worth and secures a mighty revenue for the FIA.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max negiotiates away the commercial rights secured for the FIA to a French media company.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max helps Bernie shoehorn the teams into the Concord Agreement.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max and Bernie want to encourage German exposure in F1 but unfortunatly there's a bit of a fire while refuelling due to a missing restrictor which "alledgedly" was sanctioned by the FIA. Max and Bernie meet with the Renault legal rep, Flav admits it's his fault, no sanction is issued and MS wins the WDC.

Guess what....

I think we all know where this is going.

Bernie and Max have been doing very well out of F1, thank you very much but suddenly Max is no longer in the club of 2.

Then we have the Sponsors, Manufacturers, Countries etc that are involved with F1. Sure, they are on the old Machavellian Merry Go Round where it's big corporate business and corporate brinkmanship. Yep, we have us mugs out here that buy the products that fund the sponsorship which bank-rolls the teams which partake in the race, which is put on by the tracks, which pay tribute to Bernie, which is governed by the FIA which is watched by the fans.

The wheel of life will continue in F1. The sponsors will continue to participate while it makes sense but they won't like the risk or exposure. The teams will not like the association, the important FIA members will not like being shat on and nobody in the sport wants to be associated with Max.

In this case, I agree, WATCH THE MONEY!

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Oh, I agree, but we have to look at the bigger picture.

Max and Bernie have been playing tennis with the sport of F1 for way toooooo long now.

Max gives Bernie the commercial rights for a fraction of what they were worth and secures a mighty revenue for the FIA.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max negiotiates away the commercial rights secured for the FIA to a French media company.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max helps Bernie shoehorn the teams into the Concord Agreement.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max and Bernie want to encourage German exposure in F1 but unfortunatly there's a bit of a fire while refuelling due to a missing restrictor which "alledgedly" was sanctioned by the FIA. Max and Bernie meet with the Renault legal rep, Flav admits it's his fault, no sanction is issued and MS wins the WDC.

Guess what....

I think we all know where this is going.

Bernie and Max have been doing very well out of F1, thank you very much but suddenly Max is no longer in the club of 2.

Then we have the Sponsors, Manufacturers, Countries etc that are involved with F1. Sure, they are on the old Machavellian Merry Go Round where it's big corporate business and corporate brinkmanship. Yep, we have us mugs out here that buy the products that fund the sponsorship which bank-rolls the teams which partake in the race, which is put on by the tracks, which pay tribute to Bernie, which is governed by the FIA which is watched by the fans.

The wheel of life will continue in F1. The sponsors will continue to participate while it makes sense but they won't like the risk or exposure. The teams will not like the association, the important FIA members will not like being shat on and nobody in the sport wants to be associated with Max.

In this case, I agree, WATCH THE MONEY!

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Nice rant!

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Max negiotiates away the commercial rights secured for the FIA to a French media company.

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It is "La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, and a nonprofit organization!
Should he have sold them to an Anglo media corp?
Your missing a very important distinction here. Bernie is powerful member of the Anglo-Mafia
Max is a Capo for the Continental-Mafia :p :
At times they have concerted efforts.
But only to a point! :dozey:

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Nice rant!

It is "La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, and a nonprofit organization!
Should he have sold them to an Anglo media corp?
Your missing a very important distinction here. Bernie is powerful member of the Anglo-Mafia
Max is a Capo for the Continental-Mafia :p :
At times they have concerted efforts.
But only to a point! :dozey:

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Should let the Salvation Army take it over - at least the money would be put to very good use.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

Oh, I agree, but we have to look at the bigger picture.

Max and Bernie have been playing tennis with the sport of F1 for way toooooo long now.

Max gives Bernie the commercial rights for a fraction of what they were worth and secures a mighty revenue for the FIA.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max negiotiates away the commercial rights secured for the FIA to a French media company.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

Max helps Bernie shoehorn the teams into the Concord Agreement.

Max accumulates a lot of money from sources undisclosed.

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You call that the bigger picture? I only see Max in it! :D

Would the smaller picture be with Bernie?! :p :

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Originally Posted by Tazio

Nice rant!

It is "La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, and a nonprofit organization!
Should he have sold them to an Anglo media corp?
Your missing a very important distinction here. Bernie is powerful member of the Anglo-Mafia
Max is a Capo for the Continental-Mafia :p :
At times they have concerted efforts.
But only to a point! :dozey:

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I don't care if it was the Raving Looney Party. It was either a shocking decidion or something more sinister.

Basically, he did what he lambasted his predecesor for :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

You call that the bigger picture? I only see Max in it! :D

Would the smaller picture be with Bernie?! :p :

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That's because you're scared of taking your blinkers off and looking at a complete post objectivly.

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Then we have the Sponsors, Manufacturers, Countries etc that are involved with F1. Sure, they are on the old Machavellian Merry Go Round where it's big corporate business and corporate brinkmanship. Yep, we have us mugs out here that buy the products that fund the sponsorship which bank-rolls the teams which partake in the race, which is put on by the tracks, which pay tribute to Bernie, which is governed by the FIA which is watched by the fans.

The wheel of life will continue in F1. The sponsors will continue to participate while it makes sense but they won't like the risk or exposure. The teams will not like the association, the important FIA members will not like being shat on and nobody in the sport wants to be associated with Max.

In this case, I agree, WATCH THE MONEY!

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Are you some journo or you ran out of ideas and decided to copy paste different parts of my post in order to make it look confusing?!

Next time quote properly if you want to make a serious point, otherwise don't bother. Misquoting others makes you look amateurish at least.

Capisci?!

Well, I'm yet to see the real picture in your bigger picture, so sorry but I can't change my mind. All you did is depict it as if Mosley playing around with his pants down is now plastered on every F1 related publicity, which isn't the reality.

Most people have no idea that it happened, most of the rest don't really care, and the die hard Mosley haters keep posting their biased drivel about how everyone is losing money because Max stays.

In reality the only person who is in for a loss is Bernie, the rest of us are going to win on the excitement side if Max manages to get the costs down from the astronomic levels we are at now.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Well, I'm yet to see the real picture in your bigger picture, so sorry but I can't change my mind.

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So, despite me quoting the rest of my post where I mention the FIA, Teams, Host Countries, Sponsors etc, you cannot recognise this as part of the bigger picture. Figures :laugh:

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All you did is depict it as if Mosley playing around with his pants down is now plastered on every F1 related publicity, which isn't the reality.

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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are trying to explain here. Can you clarify?

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Most people have no idea that it happened, most of the rest don't really care, and the die hard Mosley haters keep posting their biased drivel about how everyone is losing money because Max stays.

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Biased drivel?

Please explain why you think 99% of people haven't heard of what Max got up to. Everyone in my office has asked me about it and none of them follow F1. It's all about "What's this Max bloke then. He's in F1. Caught with his pants down. Ha, Ha!!"

It seems you're one of a very small minority that believe Max is good for F1 and his antics have not affected the sport detrimentally :p :

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In reality the only person who is in for a loss is Bernie, the rest of us are going to win on the excitement side if Max manages to get the costs down from the astronomic levels we are at now.

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Please tell me what has happened, not what may theoretically happen in the future or how all of a sudden, teams will drop the price they charge for sponsorship :laugh: That is soooo funny, it really is :laugh:

You could start with what the FIA has done for the Motor Industry as you keep claiming. Things like safety? What are they actually responsible for to justify the exhalted status that you attribute to Max and the FIA?

I've been asking for some time now?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Most people have no idea that it happened, most of the rest don't really care, and the die hard Mosley haters keep posting their biased drivel about how everyone is losing money because Max stays

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Are you describing 90% (the current % in the poll here) of forum members as "die hard Mosley haters"?

The best argument ayone can come out with to get rid of Max is that he isn't shakng hands with dignitaries , seemingly a crucial part of his job .

Mind you , he has sent deputies in his place , but then , if he cannot attend for any reason , that would be his job .

So , I guess Max is doing his job then .


Better find a better way than a hooker scandal if you want rid of Max .
Maybe something having something to do with his job would do it .

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Originally Posted by ioan

You call that the bigger picture? I only see Max in it! :D

Would the smaller picture be with Bernie?! :p :

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Until a few months ago, you used to see both of them in the same picture, and it wasn't a pretty one. I wish all our opinions could be as 'versatile'...

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Are you describing 90% (the current % in the poll here) of forum members as "die hard Mosley haters"?

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Exactly!

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Until a few months ago, you used to see both of them in the same picture, and it wasn't a pretty one. I wish all our opinions could be as 'versatile'...

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As I said, I'm an open minded person! ;)

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

The best argument ayone can come out with to get rid of Max is that he isn't shakng hands with dignitaries , seemingly a crucial part of his job.

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As the President, and therefore main figurehead, of a global organisation being snubbed very publicly by dignitaries around the world does nothing for that organisation's reputation and standing.

The mere fact that the FIA has been structured in such a way by the President ensured his "victory" at the EGM. That raises questions over his stewardship of the FIA. As another example, the F1 Commision was disbanded by Max at the end of 2007. Why? The commision had been the place where the F1 rules were set before being approved by the FIA, but now it is the FIA that decides, so therefore more power secured by Max. His Presidency is littered with such political moves he designed to secure his position.

On specific issues...why, for example, did the FIA President, who was to be judging the Benetton fuel rig case, allegedly (there has been no libel case to contest this) advise the teams defending lawyer how to plead the night before the hearing to ensure they were not kicked out of the championship? Is that someone acting in a fair and impartial manner, and in the interests of the sport?

Sorry Bagwan but there are many arguments to be made as to why Max should go, and only his own scaremongering argues for him staying.

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Originally Posted by ioan

As I said, I'm an open minded person! ;)

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One that labels all the people that disagree with you as die-hard Mosely haters?

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

One that labels all the people that disagree with you as die-hard Mosely haters?

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Yep, and rightly so!

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

As the President, and therefore main figurehead, of a global organisation being snubbed very publicly by dignitaries around the world does nothing for that organisation's reputation and standing.

The mere fact that the FIA has been structured in such a way by the President ensured his "victory" at the EGM. That raises questions over his stewardship of the FIA. As another example, the F1 Commision was disbanded by Max at the end of 2007. Why? The commision had been the place where the F1 rules were set before being approved by the FIA, but now it is the FIA that decides, so therefore more power secured by Max. His Presidency is littered with such political moves he designed to secure his position.

On specific issues...why, for example, did the FIA President, who was to be judging the Benetton fuel rig case, allegedly (there has been no libel case to contest this) advise the teams defending lawyer how to plead the night before the hearing to ensure they were not kicked out of the championship? Is that someone acting in a fair and impartial manner, and in the interests of the sport?

Sorry Bagwan but there are many arguments to be made as to why Max should go, and only his own scaremongering argues for him staying.

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Don't forget last year , when he managed to keep two top contenders in the race , despite driving stolen cars .
Is that someone acting in a fair and impartial manner , and in the interests of the sport ?

There were no hookers in either case , Arrows .
This was about hookers .

If the clubs of the FIA want to get rid , they need to use an issue related to F1 .

By the way , those big numbers that are quoted membership tallies fo the CAA , and AAA in North America seem to read like the whole club wants him out .
I hate to break it to you , but nobody to whom I've spoken , as members of CAA , even knew they were members by association in the FIA .
Sure , it looks good when you use statistics to prove a point , but numbers here mean little if the general membership had little to do with the decision . I know they didn't ask me t vote on whether the vote would be for or against .

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Don't forget last year , when he managed to keep two top contenders in the race , despite driving stolen cars .
Is that someone acting in a fair and impartial manner , and in the interests of the sport?

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Was that Bernie keeping them in the race and not Max? According to some accounts Max was intent on removing McLaren from the championship, largely because of personal animosity towards Ron Dennis, and was only prevented from doing so by Bernie. The alleged "witchunt" of course led to spats with, most noteably, Brundle (whatever happened to that lawsuit?) and Stewart and was brought into further focus with the Renault case.

There have been many examples of inconsitent application of the rules, and imposition of penalties under Max's watch, something that his FIA has encouraged by rules being designed to be open to interpretation by, guess who, the FIA.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

By the way , those big numbers that are quoted membership tallies fo the CAA , and AAA in North America seem to read like the whole club wants him out .
I hate to break it to you , but nobody to whom I've spoken , as members of CAA , even knew they were members by association in the FIA .
Sure , it looks good when you use statistics to prove a point , but numbers here mean little if the general membership had little to do with the decision . I know they didn't ask me t vote on whether the vote would be for or against .

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That's interesting to know. I guess it would hardly be practical for a vote to be taken of individual members, but the fact that members of the CAA were not aware they were members by association in the FIA does not do the FIA much credit in itself.

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Originally Posted by ioan

As I said, I'm an open minded person! ;)

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I would close it mate, before what is left makes a bid for freedom. ;) :p :

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

That's interesting to know. I guess it would hardly be practical for a vote to be taken of individual members, but the fact that members of the CAA were not aware they were members by association in the FIA does not do the FIA much credit in itself.

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The point , though , is that the strength of the displeasure came from the heads of the organizations , not from the general membership . Few of them even knew they were members .
Those calling for dismissal , dismissed the vote as a fraud , because of grand membership numbers .

The FIA logo is on the CAA card , and , not being a sporting club , but a "free-tow" , "free map" , safety organization , is generally unconcerned about racing .
Why would a group without racing , with members generally unaware they had any voice in the matter , hold any weight in this issue ?
Whether Max was with the heads of state in Monaco shaking hands or not has little to do with whether or not they come to tow me home .

It has little to do with hookers as well .

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I would close it mate, before what is left makes a bid for freedom. ;) :p :

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Being a free minded person is a good thing! :D
You can however keep your box closed! :p :

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

According to some accounts Max was intent on removing McLaren from the championship, largely because of personal animosity towards Ron Dennis, ...

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And ofcourse there is NO proof for this, but Brundle's Science-Fiction column! :rolleyes:

BTW, you know it very well that I would have loved to see the end of Ron "Integrity" Dennis and McLiars in F1, and it would have been a very just decision based on how much they harmed F1 last year. Compared to them Max's little adventure was a walk in the park. But some can't tell apples from oranges, neither based on color nor on taste.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Why would a group without racing , with members generally unaware they had any voice in the matter , hold any weight in this issue?

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Simply because these kind of groups come under the FIA. Is the FIA not supposed to represent motorists as well as govern motor racing? As such the FIA President is accountable One of the issues with this, graphically illustrated by the news of Max's case against the NOTW being held in France, is that he is seen generally as the "boss of F1", not the FIA President.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And ofcourse there is NO proof for this, but Brundle's Science-Fiction column! :rolleyes: .

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Brundle's opinions on the subject were not a lone voice, and he made a telling point:

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The timing of the writ is significant, in my view, given the FIA’s decision to find Renault guilty of having significant McLaren designs and information within their systems, but not administering any penalty. It is a warning sign to other journalists and publications to choose their words carefully over that decision. I’m tired of what I perceive as the “spin” and tactics of the FIA press office, as are many other journalists. I expect my accreditation pass for next year will be hindered in some way to make my coverage of F1 more difficult and to punish me. Or they will write to ITV again to say that my commentary is not up to standard despite my unprecedented six Royal Television Society Awards for sports broadcasting. So be it.

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...cle3021312.ece

However, it seems rather than restricting Brundle's accreditation, or complaining to ITV, the FIA have quietly dropped their case against Brundle/The Times after initially making a great deal of noise about it. Far more effective to do that, and call people "half-wits" to gain attention, than it is to actually substantiate those claims.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Being a free minded person is a good thing! :D
You can however keep your box closed! :p :

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;) :laugh:

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Originally Posted by ioan

And ofcourse there is NO proof for this, but Brundle's Science-Fiction column! :rolleyes:

BTW, you know it very well that I would have loved to see the end of Ron "Integrity" Dennis and McLiars in F1, and it would have been a very just decision based on how much they harmed F1 last year. Compared to them Max's little adventure was a walk in the park. But some can't tell apples from oranges, neither based on color nor on taste.

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So, oranges don't require peeling, do they, or is that apples.

Oh shoot, I'm all confused now. What was the question again? ;)

Automoto365.com recently wrote a little about Mosley in their "spies from Canada" piece, because they require registration, I will copy here the relevant quotes.

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...
Apart from an exciting race and the usual aggravation with the tarmac, the paddock spoke about a war between Bernie Ecclestone and Max Mosley. Whenever these two argue in public you have to ask yourself whether it is not just show. This time at least there was a little bit more of a serious note to it. Bernie is an employee of CVC, the commercial right holders of Formula One and therefore he has to work on behalf of CVC and play the music they want him to play.

Max Mosley is the biggest threat to CVC and he does not want to give up his veto-right on any potential buyer. He insists that the FIA has to keep authority over the rules, and he is refusing to sign a new Concorde Agreement. Firstly the FIA does not need a new one, the CVC does, and so do the teams. Mosley only wants to sign this agreement,if there are plans on how to tackle the rising costs. His proposal is to bring the Concorde Agreement back to the basics of the very first one in 1981, in which the commercial right holder only got 8 percent from the income and the teams had the rest. This is obviously completely against the interests of CVC, who thin, that 50/50 is the maximum they could afford.

Whatever they say, there are plans to sell Formula One, all the evidence points to it. Some people believe that Rupert Murdoch is interested in Formula One, but only as long as it is good value. The problem is the FIA with Max Mosley as a strong president. The government will do everything to keep the shares in F1 as unattractive as possible. At the moment the value of the sport is getting smaller and smaller with all the unsolved problems that we have, with all the blocking factors to get more money out of it. For example, no Concorde Agreement means no stability.

For CVC the scandal about Mosley’s private life was like a Christmas present, because that opened a campaign to get rid of him. They never thought that Max would stand up against it, but as soon as it became clear that he got the necessary votes in the FIA's general assembly, CVC sent Ecclestone to the front to say in public that Max should resign. The question now is whether Bernie is just doing what he is asked to do, or whether he wants this himself. He organized two team principal meetings in which he wanted a joint statement from the teams against Max, and in case he should refuse to resign, Bernie has put a breakaway championship on the table as an alternative. The interesting part of this story is, just who has the last joker up his sleeve?

Rumours say, that Max Mosley does now know the people who set him up and paid for the sting but it is well possible that a few people inside CVC have become a bit nervous. Whatever the truth behind the story is, Max Mosley might come out of it all with a repaired image.

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I'm all for Mosley and a new Concorde agreement that would bring costs down and give the teams a bigger share of the money, this would mean more teams in F1 in the future.
And these are Max's real intentions I suppose that the teams will support him rather than the CVC.

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Originally Posted by Garry Walker

Automoto365.com recently wrote a little about Mosley in their "spies from Canada" piece, because they require registration, I will copy here the relevant quotes.

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Isn't that website owned by Nicolas Todt's company. Perhaps, in the light of Jean Todt's defence of Max the contents are not too surprising.

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Bernie is an employee of CVC...Mosley is the biggest threat to CVC...For CVC the scandal about Mosley’s private life was like a Christmas present...Rumours say, that Max Mosley does now know the people who set him up and paid for the sting but it is well possible that a few people inside CVC have become a bit nervous

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All good stuff.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

All good stuff.

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As good as the one where you say that Max wanted to punish McLaren because he had a personal problem with Ron! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by ioan

As good as the one where you say that Max wanted to punish McLaren because he had a personal problem with Ron! :rolleyes:

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It's not me saying that ioan, it's been widely reported and dates back a long time.