Israel refuses peace negotiations

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

"We saw the mosque where in 1994 Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims prayer, killing 30 and wounding hundreds. In the demonstrations that followed, the Israeli army killed 12 more, then shut down the mosque for nine months, and gave part of it over for a synagogue."

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A difference between the cultures is that while suicide bombers are revered as heroes and chil role models by Palestinians, Goldstein is seen in mainstream Israel as a filthy murderer/terrorist/general piece of scum (a lot of people who visit the graveside are from overseas and the group he blonged to, Kah is considered a terrorist group outlawed by Israeli government).
This whole post you quoted is very one sided. I think that if you were a soldier and faced with a life threatening situation, you'd rather take a life than have yours taken. These demonstrations were not peaceful (I don't blame them), in fact they were flat-out riots. These soldiers are not "killers". BTW the place where all this insued is called The Patriarchs Cave and his holy to jews as well as muslims (and christians as well). Jews are not allowed inside but for 10 holy days every year. This is only to prevent clashes and to leave the muslims to their prayers.

Concerning this story, I could counter it with a thousand other stories of palestinian terrorism, but I guess the point of Camelopard's posts are to one sidedly show Israel as the bad guy so who am I to interfere...

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Originally Posted by Rani

Concerning this story, I could counter it with a thousand other stories of palestinian terrorism, but I guess the point of Camelopard's posts are to one sidedly show Israel as the bad guy so who am I to interfere...

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No it isn't, I'm showing that there are 2 sides to every story, one side of which never gets the chance to be told.

Have you read Jimmy Carter's book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid"? I suppose you are going to tell me that the former President of the USA is an anti-semite?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012301668.html


' "This is the first time that I've ever been called a liar and a bigot and an anti-Semite and a coward and a plagiarist." Carter paused and squinted at the audience. " '

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Originally Posted by Rani

A difference between the cultures is that while suicide bombers are revered as heroes and chil role models by Palestinians,

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Thats a bit of a one sided portrayal too. Sure there's a significant part of the Palestinian population that congratulates each suicide bomber as a hero but there are significant sections that hate the way the bombers hijack any peace effort and how much they are costing Palestinian society.

I remember a Sunday Times article focusing on a senior Hamas official a couple of years ago. The article was actually more interested in the personal interrelationship between him and his two wives but the journalist asked the official to defend suicide bombing. To his surprise the official said that he couldn't, it was against Islamic religious teaching and was utterly counterproductive for the Palestinian cause. He then went on to explain how many Palestinians had invested their entire life savings after the Oslo peace accords to start up business ventures and had lost everything once the suicide bombings restarted and the cycle of violence kicked off again. They were the biggest casualties on the Palestinian side and few of them were fans of the suicide bombers. He did of course acknowledge that his views weren't in line with Hamas' official policy. I have spoken to quite a few Palestinians who hold a similar line and recognise how 'suicidal' the suicide bombings really are for the Palestinians.

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Originally Posted by Dylan H

I have spoken to quite a few Palestinians who hold a similar line and recognise how 'suicidal' the suicide bombings really are for the Palestinians.

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If those guys were to obtain power, I don't think Israel would be halting the peace process, on the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Eki

It's not me you have to convince. For me it's all the same, I just try to look at it from the Palestinian point of view while you and Rani are looking at it from the Israeli view point.

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I don't think that trying to look at it from either point of view is especially helpful, given that these are so entrenched as to have made progress extremely difficult at best. The senior representatives of both sides, and their most vocal (and violent) elements, have often proved unable to take a broader view and thus aim for what is important here: peace. Looking at it from the Palestinian point of view doesn't help, because the Palestinian point of view as you see it (in reality, I suspect most Palestinians don't care so long as the bloodshed stops) is not constructive. Refusing to recognise the right of Israel to exist as a state is not a good way to move forward. Likewise, moves towards peace will continue to fail as long as Israel uses force disproportionately and refuses to recognise the fact that the Palestinians have their rights too.

On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?

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The problem with most liberals is that they are the biggest idiots out there. Reasoning with them is like getting investment advice from a drunken homeless man.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.

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I agree 100%

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

On the issue of alleged anti-Semitism, though, I have to take a firm stance against the way the Israeli government views this matter. It is nothing short of paranoid. The mildest remark, such as those made by the former MP Jenny Tonge when she said that she could understand the circumstances in which some people might want to become suicide bombers, is taken and reported as the gravest insult. Israel really should moderate its attitude to criticism.

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Well perhaps you could give us a ratio of suicide bombers to population your country vs Israel and then you just may get a idea of why they could get provoked at Tope's statement.

Came across another interesting post in my favourite Travelblog site, I started reading this guys blog when he was in China, anyway read the blog and the comments at the bottom and take a good look at the photos.

http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-Eas...og-104659.html

As usual a small quote:

The first stone had been cast: saliva rains down on us and people jump above one another to be able to deliver their contempt. We are shoved and kicked repeatedly, and even though it is apparent that events are spiraling dangerously out of control, the soldiers who are standing just a few feet behind us at the checkpoint choose to look on impotently as the attacks intensify.


A man lunges from the crowd, smashing Tove, a 19 year old Swedish girl across the face with a bottle. She immediately collapses to the ground clutching her bloodied face in horrified terror. At this point the soldiers come forward and motion at the settlers, in a “ok… that’s enough guys…” motion, amid clapping, cheering and chanting from the crowd.

As Tove lay on the hard concrete floor, blood oozing from her wounds the crowd re-groups, fed by curiosity and growing in energy“We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!” I now felt a growing sense of apprehension as awareness dawned of the mob’s evil intent and the soldiers’ unwillingness to intervene in any meaningful way. (my underlining)

As a followup to Tove's injuries see this link:

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/20...hebron-day-06/

" “The Swedish government is dissatisfied with Israel’s investigation of an attack in the contentious West Bank city of Hebron that left a Swedish activist with a broken cheekbone, the Swedish Foreign Ministry said Tuesday.
“We’re concerned that this hasn’t been followed up, and we intend to speak to the relevant authorities and ask for more information about the incident,” said Petra Hansson, a spokeswoman for the Swedish Foreign Ministry. ” "

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Originally Posted by Camelopard

As Tove lay on the hard concrete floor, blood oozing from her wounds the crowd re-groups, fed by curiosity and growing in energy“We killed Jesus, we’ll kill you too!” I now felt a growing sense of apprehension as awareness dawned of the mob’s evil intent and the soldiers’ unwillingness to intervene in any meaningful way. (my underlining)

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Yep, things haven't changed much since Jesus's days. They had the then superpower Rome on their side, now they have the US.

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Originally Posted by Eki

I can't see any reason why it would come. It's not like we've taken their land like Israel or been meddling in their soverignity and internal affairs like the US.

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Apparently your Goverment thinks otherwise.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Gov.../1076153918137

BTW Aren't Finnish Troops part of the UN "Peacekeeping Force" in Israel? Actually one of the casualties of the accidental Israeli shelling of the UN Bunker was a Finnish Soldier.