It begins to be their call the day the foreign troops is out of their country, not a day before :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
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It begins to be their call the day the foreign troops is out of their country, not a day before :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
One other point. Bushie will be gone in 2 years. When the Democrats take over the White House, will things change? Perhaps, perhaps not. What will be evident is this. Presidents come and go, dictators never go until they go out at the end of a noose or a bullet from a gun. Rarely do they die peacefully. Their people never miss them or lament them. No matter what a mess Iraq is now, those people who suffered for years under his rule do not miss him. You and I have never lived through that fear of oppression. These people have. I think they are better off, even if Iraq is a mess. You do not. I think it is presumptious of us to pretend to really know, but I do know at least in my world, they now have a choice. You would take it away from them for removing a dictator is not a value you aspire to....
I dont think it will change much, the reason they started the war is still there, millions and millions liters of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
The UN wasn't convinced, that's why the US couldn't get it's will through the Security Council and Bush decided to invade anyway, against the UN and the international laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Blix wasn't too worried about Iraq's WMDs in November 2002. He seemed to think his team was up to the task but hadn't found any incriminating evidence:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../27/se.00.html
The decision to revolt should come from the people of said dictatorship, not from an outside superpower.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa
Blix couldn't find anything because he wasn't allowed to see 99% of the country. I stand by if Saddam didn't shut out the UN, Bush wouldn't have seized the chance to invade. AS for the UN, if no one obeys their resolutions, who enforces them? IF we left it up to the Security Council of the UN to enforce them, notice China Russia and sometimes France almost always go against the US and Britain. Nothing EVER happens. So nothing is done, resolutions are worthless. So what is the UN? Worthless.
Also note the sanctions that the UN imposed were not hurting the dictator, and nations such as France were quite ready to do business with him under the table to get what they wanted. IT isn't just the US that have a lot to answer for. The world has a lot to answer for in their handling of Saddam and other thugs.
AS for the war for oil, the US doesn't GET their oil from Iraq. Venezuela and Canada sell the US far more oil than anyone else. European nations get their oil from the Middle East. If the US really wanted cheap oil, invading Iraq is a very expensive way to do it, and if they only wanted the oil, they would have pulled the last troops out 2 minutes after Saddam was captured....
By the way, make no mistake, I am not in favour of Bush's handling of this war. I think he screwed this deal up royally. That said, he isn't the evil man you would paint him as. Dubya is just not competant at being able to invade nations and run them. I would rather have the US screwing up in Iraq, then turn the keys over to Iran, who of course would desparately love to use their Shiite commonality with the Iraq Shiite community to run this country. No matter what you think of the US, don't tell me that the Iranians wouldn't have loved to taken over Iraq. Probably with some justification but their President is not on the side of angels....
Mark, I think you make some fair points, but the bottom line of the issue is that the US and the UK went to war with what we now know to be a false casus belli, over 3 000 Coalition soldiers and over 50 000 Iraqi civilians are consequently dead, and there is currently very little reason to assume that the end result will be anything like Bush envisaged, or indeed anything better than was there before the invasion.
There is really nothing praiseworthy about the whole thing.
Studiose, show me a fight for democracy over tyranny that doesn't have blood spilled. Praiseworthy is the guy on the ground who believes he is doing this for a better world. If he doesn't believe that, the US or UK soldier on the ground is thowring his life away, and in two nations where there is no draft, it isn't just the politicians who believe in this cause.
WW2 was a long battle to free Europe from the shackles of Hitler, and while Eastern Europe (and your homeland) were still under the yoke of the USSR's communist regime at the end, at least democracy was restored in Western Europe. Many millions died in this tragedy but what was the alternative? I don't think Iraq is nearly as noble, for I think Hussein was not a Hitler, but it certainly wasn't for a lack of trying on his part. To cry tears over this thug's hanging is just silly. If there is only one death penalty carried out a year, it is to be carried out on thugs like Hussein.....
The most sane thing, perfectly put, I've ever read about the Iraq invasion.Quote:
Originally Posted by studiose
History will show us what it was.
Unless it's erased from history books in schools all over the world .... which I feel sure it will be :mark:
BTW, I think in no way that it is right the Baltic Nations were sucked into the USSR. I don't think it was right and I know most of your countrymen at that time likely didn't want any part of Stalin, but to fight a war, sometimes you have to have a chance and a hope of winning. The way things were then, time was the only way to free Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. At least now though you have an understanding through your forebears of what it is to live in a democratic society. 25 years ago, if the internet came along, you can be sure no one in your world would be allowed anywhere near it to voice your disapproval of the world. Eki and his ilk would not be allowed the freedom to voice their displeasure, and while they may not like George Bush, he is no direct threat to their freedom's or any other ordinary joe. His nation may be wrong in the eyes of many for invading Iraq, but what is happenning there now isn't going to change when the Coalition of the willing pulls out, Iraqis seem bent on killing each other.