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Agreed to an extent. The negative or lethargic customer also has power. If enough people don't buy tickets to an event for a long enough period, be the reason hatred or apathy, then that event will go away. Case in point: people didn't buy tickets to Kelly Clarkson's concerts this summer, so she canceled them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJackMiller
Answer #3 (refined): Theory of evolution: adapt or die.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJackMiller
Then why havent you responded to my last pm? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by heelntoe
I agree with "Mark In Oshawa". This is the best thread I have seen recently. It is mainly about the politics of Open Wheel racing, but it is being debated in an adult manner with respect for all so far. I for one am glad that the moderator "Starter" is letting this continue.
Now back to "What Happens Next?"
Well, in my opinion I agree with various bits of what has already been posted. I am sorry to say it, but I think CCWS as currently owned by KK, GF, PG and DP will be gone sometime in 2008. If Paul Newman leaves and Carl Haas and Lanigan head for the IRL, then the fat lady will be clearing her throat.
A merger will not take place. Tony George would be wise not to enter into any agreement right now. Which is why I suspect he is keeping quiet counsel. No doubt he may well be taking advice from Roger Penske and other Motorsport Industry doyens.
The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party. However, CCWS ins't worth much. In England we have a saying...
"Mutton dressed up as Lamb"
....unfortunately, CCWS is pretty close to that. For those of you who are unfamiliar with the vernacular, it is effectively describing a situation where something looks a lot better than it actually is.
I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders. That is why CCWS is failing and will ultimately fail. Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.
I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. I even tried to get my Investment Bank involved, but for one thing or another it did not work out. I had so much hope and faith then and was so pleased when the Bankruptcy ruling went Kalkhoven's way. However, since the end of 2004, it has become more difficult to see a way forward and feel genuine hope. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.
Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.
PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.
Actually ,I hope that too. I really hope TG just keeps on waiting...Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
But CC will not go away.
No CC is not for sale, it was just recently confirmed again.Quote:
The CCWS leaders are trying to get enough profitable overseas venues to stay afloat and get some money back. They may be preparing for a sale to a third party.
I have no idea what you're talking about, the ALMS cars were as fast as the IRL cars, the race was mess and it wasn't a sellout.All you have is a opinion, its not everyone's. This is why you think CC will die? What about the races and the drivers,events and the cars, that's why we like CC.Quote:
I watched the ALMS and IRL race at Belle Isle and I was impressed with BOTH series. Before you flame me, consider how CCWS came across at Road America with the ALMS against how the IRL did with the ALMS at Belle Isle. The difference was staggering. Therein lies the problem, the CCWS leaders are not getting the job done compared to the IRL leaders.
They said that many times.smoke and mirrorsQuote:
Also, note what the IRL said during their press release at the weekend. They are targeting Canadian and Mexican races with the next two years. You know what, they are going to get into those markets as well.
What about the racing? PR doesn't mean that much to most fans. I 'm sorry its so important to you. Maybe you can fly into Richmond next year and get your PR fix. AJ Allmendinger chose his fate,he doesn't race on sundays anymore.Quote:
I am hurt right now, because I supported the series financially as much as any fan could at the beginning of the difficult period. I went to the race at Brands Hatch in 2003, and then flew to 3 USA based races in 2004. I met Kalkhoven and he was great, taking pictures with me and Jimmy Vasser and thanking me for the support. The CCWS has lurched from one PR disaster to the next. Oh, and by the way, the new car was not the answer and letting AJ Allmendinger leave was scandalous.
Keep hoping, I guess we won't see you at the CC races in 2008, no PR and all. :s mokin:Quote:
Thus, in my opinion, what will happen next is that eventually CCWS will fold and bits will be sold to other parties. In effect a defacto merger will take place because the IRL will be the last man standing. Also, American Open Wheel will get a lot better with one series.
CC will be at RA in 2008. :DQuote:
PS: On a lighter note, if the IRL is the only American Open Wheel in 2009, then as long as they race at Road America I will be happy. What a beautiful circuit. I also want to visit the area as well as I hear it is quite picturesque.
but keep hopin' and wishin'
I too am very glad this thread continued. For once, a thread that wondered off came back with some very civil and thought provoking discussions that presented a number of interesting viewpoints.Quote:
Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer
As a fan, I have no clue "what happens next" because it appears the powers in charge at CCWS don't even have a clue about their next step. If they don't know "whats next" for them, forecasting the future is a crap shoot. As a fan, I think the split has weakened both series, but perhaps is some ways a "merger" has already happened. The power teams from the old CART days are now in the IRL and the IRL has taken on the look of the old series with the addition of street and road courses.
The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.
There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.
The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.
I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.
CC certainly knows their next step. Just sit back and watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by beachbum
As far as your merge stuff. It's the same old IRL it's always been and they are trying to be CART alright, it will never work though, its just a imitation along with some of the worst things about the old CART, like Belle Isle.
huh? CC isn't folding and it won't be all euro races. where do you get this stuff,the promoters/tracks pay the sanction fees and travel. bleak??????Quote:
The "new" CCWS is on a different path and is now more European in flavor with little connection to the open wheel legacy in the US. If it becomes more euro-centric, how many teams will follow? Most are based in Indianapolis and having many flyaway races just doesn't make economic sense when the financial situation is as bleak as it appears. If it folds, how many teams will continue in US open wheel? I doubt all would switch to the IRL. There are too many other racing options. Add in the lost races that won't get picked up, and the biggest losers may be the fans.
desperation time ,the old lawsuit. If it even gets to court,it still has to be proven ,it could take a long time, it could get settled ,it could be dismissed or the people suing could LOSE. Regardless, a civil suit against the company and the rest will make the lawyers rich. Mark this down now, it won't make any difference to CC. NONE, As much as you're hopin' and wishin' nothing will change.Quote:
There are many factors in this dog fight, including the class action suit from JDSU that Petit and KK both face. If they lose, it will cost a bundle. The loses from CCWS may seem tiny in comparison.
how dramatic! knifes edge? Last man standing? you guys crack me upQuote:
The future of CCWS appears to be sitting on a knife edge. Many have claimed the Phoenix cancellation pushed them over the edge. There are many other things that can go wrong. A few ride buyers finding other options, a few events throwing in the towel, a couple teams or sponsors saying "enough". It wouldn't take much to sink this ship. The amigos think it will go the other way with new sponsors, more interest, new events, etc. But frankly I have my doubts. They missed most of their past goals.
I agree with FlatChatRacer. The result will be the last man standing.
keep hopin' and wishin'
Sanguin, if you took off those rose coloured glasses, you would almost be mistaken for the copy guy on SNL that Jon Lovitz played. You have an answer for everything, but it is after all your opinion.
IF Belle Isle is a failure, explain why RP will have it next year? He doesn't do this for a hobby, he likes to make money off his events. ALMS said they will be there, so you know IRL is going to be there. I thought the whole idea was out to lunch,but Roger pulled it off, and people who are Champ Car fans have come on here and told me it worked out well. Geek, who is a Michgander and covers the sport told me they did just fine, and Deetroit was excited about having the race back. In short, the reality doesn't fit your view, so you slag it.
Now, this is a Champ Car thread, so I will just put that aside, but again, you say the IRL is dying, and Champ Car will prevail, and no one needs Indy.
Right, well the series that had all the teams, and all the good venues in 1996 is the one that went bankrupt. The series that came out of it was built using the best parts of the bankrupt series, and was to have the best plan and none of the baggage. Well, what do we have now? We had a race not even come off not once but TWICE. Spare me your rhetoric, I suspect if we had a informal poll here, my view of the goings on is better supported than yours. I don't have to make up anything, I just pick up the newspaper and read yet another PR screw up by Champ Car. You cant do that once a month or better for a year, and not start to have people lose faith in your operation.
Ok, enough of the negative.
IF Champ Car wants to survive, and not deal with the IRL, here is how it HAS to go. First off, make it one owner with an iron fist. Part of the misinformation issue Champ Car has is the Amigos have been caught NOT on the same page more than once. Two, Fire Steve Johnson if he doesn't bring a sponsor on board in the next 8 months for the series. I mean a sponsor that pays big dollars. Bigger than...NONE. Steve didn't make any friends at SCCA Pro, and I know this because I work for World Challenge every year, and they told me how glad they were to see him GONE. Third, the ironfisted owner has to decide on a schedule that will be made up of events that are engraved in stone, and build on them with events that he is willing to lose some money on WITH the promotor to make them happen. Phoenix should have been done, even if they had to paper the house if for no other reason than credibility. The put their legal muscle behind the effort to put that race there, and to have it go "pfft" so quickly just makes the operation look mickeymouse.
They have to buy time to get on TV, so be it, but put it on NETWORK TV, and offer it up to ESPN as well. Sell your commericials if you can, but put together a broadcast that is NOT like what they are doing now. Right now it is unwatchable. Any TV partner the series gets has to take the races live except for EXTREME situations where a prior conflict might be an issue, and then the placing of the tape delay has to be mutually agreed on and again, engraved in stone. Right now, their Canadian partner moves the race to suit THEIR sched, and it is a partner that quite frankly is unwatchable at the best of times with their constant score tickers on the bottom. They have to quit doing business with the first available suitor, and maybe they should really have to pay for a while to get better coverage. TV is the key, and it has to be a loss leader for a few years to try to rebuild an audience that has been used and abused.
They have to do NOTHING to the racing product, save put it on one or two ovals a year besides the events they have now. Lausitz should have been their first Eurostop, and Mexico has to remain part of the family. I have no idea why Forsythe quit promoting Monterray, but I would have to say it should be examined why that event failed, and something has to be learned.
Champ Car has had success in a number of markets, but instead of learning why the audience went away, they have just moved on. Why? Has a marketing study been done? That is a priority any new owner should have. Learn what is going on and why the market is going away. OW fans are by nature going to be intersted forever if they like this type of racing. Why are they NOT showing up now? What is the issue? Is it cost? Is it the promotion? is it they became fans of NASCAR? I can tell you it isn't the IRL that is getting these folks. I bet if you took a survey of fans of the IRL, most were either casual fans that got hooked, or have always been fans. Where are the Champ Car fans going? Who were all of those people who watched CART and where did they go? Was it all NASCAR. Many on the NASCAR board say yes, and they left because they saw what a joke they thought CART was becoming. Aliens didn't abduct them, so spend the money on a survey that will nail down what happened.
The New owner of Champ Car should pair up with ALMS where they can, and pair up with a partner in Europe such as LMES or the BTCC/DTM lines. Show your show off to those fans. In Asia, do an event with the Aussie v8's besides Surfers.
Expose this product as best you can, but keep the core of the series North American, with 3 events in Europe (Assen and Lausitz for sure, maybe a British venue if Zolder isn't viable) and 2 or 3 in Australasia. Maybe 2 events in Asia with 2 in Oz. That leaves 13 or so on the continent, and make the series 20 weeks. Have no more than 2 weeks between events and just go.
Spend the money on marketing, TV, and oh yes....making sure the teams can resign name drivers. Tie drivers up wherever possible to long term contracts. THat means guys like Tags, Andrew Ranger and Dominguez shouldn't have to go cap in hand begging for rides. No offense to Pags, Gommendy or Doornbos, but until they they came over, no fans here really knew who they were. How can you sell your series to Americans when you have to start from scratch every year. Have your drivers signed 2 months in advance. Just tell teams they have to get it done. Assist them to get it done.
Now I realize I have spent a lot of money here, and it aint mine. That said, if Champ Car is to be the rip roaring success you all think it is, then it should be paid back in time with profits. If it isn't, then it at least you gave it the proper effort it deserves.
Oh ya. fire the Webmaster and run professional PR relations and webblogs. Pay people to right something people want to read, and keep the webpage up to date. How many threads have I seen on here about things wrong or not changed on the site? Fix Race Director. Many people say they think it is done poorly and isn't worth the money. You cant have race fans thinking the package sucks and telling everyone that. You should be living and dying with word of mouth advertising. (I am Proof, for they have made me NOT a Champ Car fan this year by not sweating the details) I can live with Champ Car failing or succeeding if they were showing some flair in advertising and TV ,but right now, it looks like a shoe string budget and champaigne dreams.....
Yes maybe I should have. When I initially started this part of the discussion, I thought that was pretty clear. As things progressed it became apparent that it was not as clear as I thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by OWFan19
Gary
Very assuring, Steve Johnson. Yeah, that's what you told KK when he was in Antartica. Next time, wear your knee pads coz you'll be buzy since you know the next step you'll be doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by sanguin
Who the.... obviously, this guy is from fanatics.
Ah, it's getting annoying now. Mark in Oshawa, can you show me how that magic button works again, that ignore thing? I never get to use it. Let me see if it really works. Guys here been using it against me, now it's my turn to use it. Thanks in advance.
CART, I ignore no one, I would rather beat em over the head with some reality.....they get mad when you do that.
Funny thing is, I am getting beaten on lately by Champ Car fans, and got my cred beating on IRL trolls here......funny how I am good for the morale of the boys when I knock TG, but when I am an equal opportunity guy for the truth, and all the sudden I am full of it?
I like the debate....gives me something to do before I start hitting the road later this week. Then to paraphrase the late President Nixon: "You wont have DICK to kick around no more!!!"