Government is evil...

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Originally Posted by donKey jote

Are you implying that without your bible there would be no common law?
It's the other way round: the 10 commandments were more likely based on the common law at that point in space and time :)

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Again, that could be the case. But then they are just a codification of what was believed to be God-given law.

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Originally Posted by Mark

But that assumes that the 10 commandments were invented on the spot and before that it was ok to steal and murder?

Perhaps they are just the first recorded record of what was already well understood.

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Bingo.
The Bible, I believe, calls the Jews a hard-headed people, so the Ten Commandments were God's way refreshing what already existed and making them a written absolute.

What happened when Moses came down with the first copy showed what happens when God gets out the Holy Two-by-Four.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Bob, I don't really think going down this religous path with you is adding anything to the point of discussion. We have strayed from the point, where do the rights of man come from?

You seem to believe that they have been granted by some "legal" entity at some point in our history. My take on that is to say that if rights were granted by a "legal" entity at some arbitrary point in time, they can just as easily be taken away at an arbitrary point in time. How do you propose that we may protect our rights if this is the case?

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That is why the Second Amendment exists.

The writers of the Constitution knew government is not an inherently good body, and if it becomes corrupted there must be a way for what it took the country to come into existance to be repeated, if need be.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

That is why the Second Amendment exists.

The writers of the Constitution knew government is not an inherently good body, and if it becomes corrupted there must be a way for what it took the country to come into existance to be repeated, if need be.

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I agree with what you have said in this post 100%.

However, I'm not sure it is 100% consistent with what you have said. What I mean is, you seem to be arguing that your rights come from government or the law, whatever. If that is the case, and government or the law takes said rights away, what basis do you have for your revolution?

There must be firm grounding for your rights. That grounding can be God, nature, human consiousness, whatever. There is just too much ambiguity, changability, or arbitraryness in basing your fundamental rights in "the law".

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I agree with what you have said in this post 100%.

However, I'm not sure it is 100% consistent with what you have said. What I mean is, you seem to be arguing that your rights come from government or the law, whatever. If that is the case, and government or the law takes said rights away, what basis do you have for your revolution?

There must be firm grounding for your rights. That grounding can be God, nature, human consiousness, whatever. There is just too much ambiguity, changability, or arbitraryness in basing your fundamental rights in "the law".

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The grounding for any rights, whether Federal or State, comes from the Constitution, whether Federal or State.
Those cannot be taken away, except by Constitutional Amendment, in which case fools may end-up serving their own folly.

The way this/these government/s, and the courts, seem to be ignoring, or trying to rewrite, rather than follow, the current Constitution/s in their own image, is very disturbing.

Other countries also have Constitutions, how strong they are depends on how strong the people are in defending their rights rather than being servants of the government.

Venezuela, is now a place to watch for the Constitution verses the Government. (Courts serving the Constitution vs. the Government is also an item that must be watched closely.)

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

The grounding for any rights, whether Federal or State, comes from the Constitution, whether Federal or State.
Those cannot be taken away, except by Constitutional Amendment, in which case fools may end-up serving their own folly.

The way this/these government/s, and the courts, seem to be ignoring, or trying to rewrite, rather than follow, the current Constitution/s in their own image, is very disturbing.

Other countries also have Constitutions, how strong they are depends on how strong the people are in defending their rights rather than being servants of the government.

Venezuela, is now a place to watch for the Constitution verses the Government. (Courts serving the Constitution vs. the Government is also an item that must be watched closely.)

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Are you then saying that the Founding Fathers just made up rights when they wrote the Constitution?

If we got a Constiutional Amendment stating that anyone named Bob must be a slave to the rest of society, or die, you'd be just fine with that?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Are you then saying that the Founding Fathers just made up rights when they wrote the Constitution?

If we got a Constiutional Amendment stating that anyone named Bob must be a slave to the rest of society, or die, you'd be just fine with that?

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You got it.

We had a thing where everyone from Africa was a slave to society. The Constitution and a war did away with that.

Although Lincoln actually ignored parts of the Constitution to save the Union. Nothing in government does not have flaws.
The dealing of the Missouri-Kansas border war that led in to the Civil War, emphasized the failing and imperfecton of laws, and why chaos is sometimes better than the letter of the law.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

You got it.

We had a thing where everyone from Africa was a slave to society. The Constitution and a war did away with that.

Although Lincoln actually ignored parts of the Constitution to save the Union. Nothing in government does not have flaws.
The dealing of the Missouri-Kansas border war that led in to the Civil War, emphasized the failing and imperfecton of laws, and why chaos is sometimes better than the letter of the law.

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I clearly stated in my first (or one of) post in this thread that the US is not perfect, there are flaws with our Constitution, our laws, and our leaders.


But please clarify one thing for me. Are you actually saying that the Founders just pulled rights out of the sky? That somehow they didn't believe the words they wrote?

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We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

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or how about this

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When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

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What is this Law or Nature and Nature's God which they speak, if as you say they pulled rights out of thin air?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

But please clarify one thing for me. Are you actually saying that the Founders just pulled rights out of the sky? That somehow they didn't believe the words they wrote?

What is this Law or Nature and Nature's God which they speak, if as you say they pulled rights out of thin air?

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There is no such thing as God given rights according to Bob. He is in effect saying that the Founders just pulled rights out of the sky.

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Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

I do not care what they used to form their opinions. Opinions are all they are, but fortunately for us in the U.S. they used them to form our Constitution.
The fact they gave us legal rights, does not change the fact there is no such thing, in writing, such as God given rights.

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Even when presented with reasonable grounds taken from the bible (which he demands as the only allowable source) he still refused to concede that natural rights exist. (See pages 6 & 7)

Feds to design health insurance for the masses

In this case Government is Very, Very Evil!!!