Is it a coincidence that Donaldson has close links with an R5 manufacturer...….Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
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Is it a coincidence that Donaldson has close links with an R5 manufacturer...….Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I didn't realize he's still working with some team. But that surely makes his statement a bit biased...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancia Stratos
Breen supports the idea of R5 cars on main level https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/breen...rally2-future/
Its a good idea for cost-saving and getting private entries but the problem is manus want to promote hybrid / electric cars now.
R2 (R5) as the top level would only work with private teams running them. And who would then create any new R2 cars going forward ?
R2 is not the new R5Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Rally2 is the new R5
Rally4 is the new R2
"Rally" does not equal "R". You can't just exchange the old and new prefixes or it becomes nonsense.
What are the existing cars going to be called... eg Citroen C3 R5... Citroen C3 Rally2 ?
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
https://www.skoda-motorsport.com/en/...ason-new-name/
https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-pos...-FIESTA-RALLY4
You really didn´t know that there are ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Fabia Rally2 EVO
208 Rally4 (new bodyshape, 5-doors only)
Fiesta Rally4 (update kit is available for R2 owners)
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-p...riving-styles/
Esapekka Lappi reminds again how the new rules will mean that they cannot drive flat out all the time like now
As automotive companies are starting to face the harsh realities caused by the lockdowns and the potential future, I think we might end up thinking of a completely different kind of rallying future. When sorting old magazines last weekend, came upon a graph showing who controls which car brands. There are 14 different big companies controlling most of the brands.
Today read the news that Renault is in deep trouble (Link to Reuters article, dated 22nd May). And obviously everyone is on a cost saving mission but tough times lead to mergers as well. So the outlook for new manufacturers to enter WRC doesn't look very bright, in my opinion.
If to look at the very dark scenario, that many different manufacturers will have very difficult times and even more brands will end up being owned by even less companies, then could we end up with a situation where no manufacturer would be interested in running a WRC marketing campaign? If it goes that way, will the customer racing have to take the leading role in WRC? Or could there be a crazy move to private outfits and more prototype style class (if the manufacturers won't let use their vehicles' designs or other restrictions from them)?
Just throwing some ideas in the air as the future looks very different now than it was 5 months ago.
If the sport comes down to a level where privateers can afford to run a WRC season, the costs will equally be low enough for manufacturers to have a program for relatively negligible cost. Especially if there's presumably still a market for selling cars to privateers in your scenario. In your doomsday scenario, Formula 1 could be decimated very quickly, but rallying could weather the same storm, as it can theoretically downsize costs very quickly while maintaining a largely similar product.
but manufacturers don't want that. why to sell the R5 car for 250 000€ as a top car in WRC when you can rent your car for something less money then that (David Richards and Malcolm Wilson invented that). also they want silver rockets as WRC cars.
R5 should be top category with that price
In the light of the Renault news, F1 might end up with just Ferrari and Mercedes as factory teams. Haven't been following F1 for some time, so not sure how to classify Alfa Romeo. But F1 really don't rely on manufacturers filling the grid.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Rallying itself would survive, but what I'm more interested in is how will the current crisis affect the manufacturers' involvement. Car manufacturers are in a quite similar situation to the airlines as both are losing money because there are considerably less people buying their products/services. And all the changes in employment will affect the future spendings of people, who will most likely postpone big expenditure. Plus the drop in travel industry will affect car rentals. On top of the drop in sales, there's still the pressure for the manufacturers to make their vehicle fleet greener. And those developments are expensive and different manufacturers are already working together to reduce development costs. Manufacturers also have lots of debt, which needs paying.
We need to keep in mind that big corporations are run by finance guys in the first place and their only aim is to earn profit and spend as little as possible.
Five months ago I would had thought this doomsday scenario is bonkers, but like I wrote in the previous post the world is very different now. And we don't even know when life will be back on normal track.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
Probably Toyota and Hyundai will get over Covid impacts better than any western manu and MSport depends less and less on Ford sake to be at the WRC. The FIA failled to get new manus into the series long before the pandemic (PSA is focused on LeMans/WEC, Skoda is trapped on VW’s electric plan and Subaru is taken an eternity to decide its return) and there was little more to do than getting a compromise with the 3 current manus.
Even if some aspects of that compromise sounds weird (like saving on dampers specs while keeping the expensive GREngines) and there’s no way that 2022 cars will cost €500k like Matton promissed (manus will pay over 100k per car just for the hybrid system), the truth is that the 3 manus agreed on 2022 tech guidelines, so post-Covid savings will likely happen on running costs.
After the announced limitations on major parts replacement, it’s not hard to predict that, as many are already talking, we may end with shorter events or even a smaller calendar. If so, let’s hope those changes can be made in a reasonable way.
Agreed
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/new-w...CCMKDfL1aPNWxc
Rally should be the motorsport where local lads can compete with (almost) same equipment as the pros, as they now does in wrc2 and 3. The privateers love to beat the factory drivers!
Basically yes but like in most other sports WORLD level is bit different thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
My first post in this forum is going to be a pretty weird one but here we go:
Do you think there is a place for these type of cars in WRC? Not the top class, of course. BUT we know these european autocross buggys (in this case it has a co-pilot seat too!) can be as fast as the european/world rallycross cars... SO they are kinda "able" to compete with R5.. maybe? Anyway... any chances in the future?
AND If there IS already a "rally format" series with buggys like this - other than hilclimb - you can send me some links I'd love to! haha Cheers
Attachment 1948
I think one of the strengths of rallying is the close relationship there's always been between cars used in competition and cars sold to the public, even if it's only the looks. I don't think buggy-things belong in rallying, and certainly not in WRC where you need the commitment from manufacturers and big sponsors.
Buggies are more a cross country rally vehicle. Cross Karts are more a closed dirt / tarmac track vehicle.
Finnish single seater Cross Kart 2013 on forest track
https://youtu.be/wPXENKf84V8
Depends on local area rules/ insurance / liabilities for used a limited production special vehicle on a public road between stages. The Australian Rally Championship had side by side utilities for a few years.
-----------------------------------------------
The previous space tube frame rally cars were the Group B cars.
Woodner Group B spaceframe 205 history
https://youtu.be/5PGB3l78guM
French get some of the dakar vehicles on french rallies from time to time. (hillclimb with dakar pug in this one)
https://youtu.be/UQKIRajNJPs
Saker tube frame have competed on tarmac rallies.
http://sakersportscars.com/en/home/
The WRC has gone a full circle if the manufacturers tube space frame cars are allowed back again. With the 'cars' allowed to be scaled - they might be considered manufactuers' buggy wrcs?
https://www.topgear.com/car-news/wor...ng-hybrid-2022
Whether the tube cars filter down in lower ranks of stage rallying remains to be seen. The rallycross lites were space frames from Turkey.(Avitas)
https://youtu.be/CUM42CagO3Q
Speed UTV if their initial projects succeed they have plans for an enclosed 2 seater UTV that could be quite suitable for taking part in non-European stage rallying. 300 hp turbo 1000cc on E85, cvt trans, 4wd, tube frame, long travel suspension, HD brakes, full size spare tyre, FIA bag race tank, frame able to separated to service/ remove the engine/ transmission etc
https://youtu.be/mIyWJmyQBgo (very basic prototype sxs utv initial PR display)
No review of 2022 Rules says Matton:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fia-s...deration-calls
https://dirtfish.com/rally/manufactu...rc-next-month/
M-Sport are cautious and rightly so. It's time Ford came back as full factory team.
It's a complete mess. Only two teams look like they will sign. The FIA imposing a deadline of August.
No other manufacturer's even being mooted. I thought M-Sport are already developing the 2022 car?
I can't understand why the FIA and the promoter aren't making more noise about refreshing the whole championship, as opposed to insisting that everyone signs up by August.
Things clearly not going in the correct direction in terms of attracting new manufacturers, yet they still push on, insisting the new regulations are good for the sport. Really?
Maybe the whole thing needs to collapse to reinvent itself. It would ba a shame, but the long term may be better for it.
So, Toyota & Hyundai......and where are the others? Ford would come back 'officially' if they thought it was worth it. As would others.......However, the Covid-19 pandemic has surely put a stop to any others who were thinking about it.
But the FiA are determined to plough on regardless......What could possibly go wrong.....
My thoughts exactly. I’m astonished and a bit pissed iff with their ‘everything’s good here’ attitude. Compare to F1 or the DTM, where there’s transparency between organisers / teams / fans with regard to the problems in those series.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
Arrogance beyond belief.
It just seems like people on wrc do not learn from past mistakes.
As someone on a rally podcast said recently, the 2017-Cars have been 'massive short-term gain, for massive long-term pain'.
They have cost a fortune, lost us a great rally team (Citroen), lost us any top level privateer entry, and only made us hardcore rally fans happy and not attracted many new ones.
This being the case, we shouldn't be surprised that the new 2022 WRC Regs (decided by & for the WRC Promoter's benefit and 2 well-funded Asian manufacturer's) wont be good for the sport either.
Maybe, but they have been getting WRC publicity on the cheap for years now. M-Sport may have decided to make a stand and said they wont commit to 2022 til Ford commit to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I don't think a reduction in cost per car would make much difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
If the series meant a manufacturer stood much chance of selling more cars, they would enter.
Remember the old Safari... they had bloody helicopters flying service technicians in mid-stage!
It's not about cost of cars or championship entry costs, it's about exposure and return on investment and for that, you need people tuning in.
They haven't achieved that, not even in the current format with these beastie 2017 cars, so what's going to change if they make the cars cheaper and possibly get another manufacturer on board? Another name on a trophy, but for who to see? The same hardcore fans that tune in at the moment.
The format is stale.
Rallying as a sport is about endurance and speed.
What we have now is just a few super fast cars, sprinting along a few predictable stages, usually with the winner clearly visable by mid-Friday morning....
Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.
Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).
Under what circumstances would Citroen have continued to hang around, other than perhaps with continued domination at a low price, which couldn't be achieved once other teams turned up and they didn't have the best driver anymore? No manufacturer stays forever and they bid a long goodbye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
The new cars have attracted new fans and brought back old ones, they aren't the problem and probably would have been funded by all but one manufacturer for a five year run. But their impact has been limited by the same issues that have dogged the WRC for 15 years, lack of exposure and uninspiring event formats. All Live is great, but casual fans will never see it. In most countries WRC Promoter haven't got the highlights show any better broadcast deals than North One did with a worse 'product'. I think privateer entries as a draw for fans is being rather overstated.
This can only come from a person who doesn't follow the sport enough even to know if Monte is run over multiple regions.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Have you heard of this product called All Live? Rallying has become increasingly popular during the latest few years. People are suggesting rallies would be shortened, not lengthened. Who would benefit from longer rallies, other than old farts who crave for nostalgy of the yesteryear? Also remember that the current race engines (and probably other parts as well) need a rebuild after 500 km of stages.Quote:
Changing back to a more endurance based sport, which people can dip in and out of over a weekend, might sound ridiculous, but it might be what must happen. They've gone down this path of everything starting at the same time and finishing at the same time every weekend it's on, but this format simply hasn't achieved the standard it needs to for the FIA world rally championship series, in terms of exposure.
Well of course motorsport is a thing of the past, there's just no denying it. Things won't return to how it was in the 00's, 90's, 80's or 70's.Quote:
Let's face it, how many of you are confident the sport has a bright future as things are? (even taking the dreaded Covid out of the equation).
The late great Martin Holmes said already in 2002 "The minute that rallying stops changing, it will no longer adapt itself to the changing face of life on earth, and that means the sport will be doomed".
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
It's really stuck with you that I asked if the Monte was ran over more then one region. I wasn't sure, I asked, because I suspected it was and you immediately thought I was asking as a snipe at your original post (whatever that was). I didn't know, but you think that has to correlate with my opinion on the level of predictability in today's events? Get a grip and be honest with yourself.... it IS predictable.
"Have I heard of all live?" Yes.
"Rallying has become more popular over the last few years" Well, that's even more worrying then isn't it, that Citroen left, Ford don't seem to want anything to do with it and we have the only two manufacturers a little over a month away from a deadline for new regs, who still haven't committed yet, but yes AnttiL, rallying is more popular!
"remember the current engines need a rebuild" are you so hemmed into what we have now that it's beyond the possibility of your imagination that a rules change will allow for a more reliable engine, should event distance increase? Think about it, it's not hard.... change the regs.
I'm not saying that longer rallies will work, but for me, that's one of the main attractions of the sport, one of it's foundations and they've taken it away, thinking this new bite sized format will work and it just isn't. Oh, sorry, I forgot, it's more popular than ever!
If Martin Holmes was correct in his prediction, then why do you assume change must mean not changing back to something that once worked? again, short sighted. Just because it's not been done for a while, doesn't mean it wouldn't work.
"who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?
Of course I am not saying what I think may work and what I would like to see IS definitely the answer, but you seriously need to take the rose tinted glasses off and see that it is in a proper shit state right now, or you'll be making your maps for empty entry lists and no spectators.
M-Sport taking a stand or they cant/wont commit to 2022...
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-spo...022-wrc-entry/
We may or not agree with the new rules but from what is publicly known the FIA can’t be blamed for arrogance on making them; besides Matton, all manus principals and the promoter revealed they’re working on a permanent dialogue and compromise. The formal pre-engagement is a normal procedure and regarding all the positive feedback from the manus in the recent months it’s surprising to see one of them rejecting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
https://dirtfish.com/motorsport/wrc-...has-ever-seen/
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc-teams...-next-january/
That’s an unrealistic demand; there’s no way the FIA can impose Rally1 cars in national series and in regional FIA competitions WRC cars weren’t allowed long before 2017. Besides, with the hybrid system and safety cell costs, Rally1 cars will barely be less expensive than current WRC’s; apart a privateer class in the WRC, with manus support, probably there’s little way to spread Rally1 cars use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
After 3 of the most exciting WRC seasons ever, with close fights for the win and many events decided on the last day or even on the last stage, I would say that Antii’s rosed tinted glasses are more realistic than the very dark ones you’re using to portrait WRC state.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
There’s no doubt that until Covid’s pandemic WRC spectator’s numbers were increasing, both locally and globally, mostly thanks to the wow factor of post-17 cars and WRC+ broadcast. The reason why that increasing popularity didn’t materialize on a larger number of manus is quite simple: overall running costs went through the roof and they do matter in motorsport.
Even in pre-Covid days the automotive industry was facing wildely expensive challenges with EV’s mandatory rules and a race for driving automation systems making cost cutting imperative in other areas, like motorsport. That way, each rally/racing series is forced to compete for a slice of an increasingly smaller pie, with overall running costs control becoming crucial for manus investement.
WEC/Le Mans example is paradigmatic: Toyota was the only manu left in the expensive high tech hybrid era, forcing the FIA and the ACO to come with less expensive hybrid systems rules, still not enough to convince manus to invest (apart Peugeot). Now, with IMSA’s help, they’re proposing a new cost effective category, based on common spec hybrid systems and lower class chassis, making Porsche, Audi and many others to consider an LM return.
In that sense and facing Covid’s inevitable impact, it’s not hard to think, unlikely the FIA and the 3 manus are doing, that the new rules may be in a dangerous countercycle and a Super R5 Hybrid solution would be a much wiser option for WRC future.
Did you read what M.Wilson said - in 2017 WRCar sales fell off a cliff and they cant sustain a business just making them for Ford to enter as a psuedo-factory team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
No new manu's are coming in, so do we let M-Sport leave as well ? If so that's a bad indictment on the future of the sport at the top level.
M-Sport accepted the new rules and the plan for hybrid cars, but didnt say anything about agreeing where and by who they could be used. Forcing them into another 4 years of no private WRC sales is just not on. Something has to give...
There's been so many last stage lead position changes during 2019 alone. There might have been rallies where Tänak was leading from the first day to the end but even then you still had to be on the edge of your seat to see if the car would last to the finish. And it probably was more predictable before 2017 when it was just Ogier or Loeb dominating rallies from the beginning to the end. Not to mention the dominating eras of Audi and Lancia.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
You guys are now mixing up the car formats and event formats. So the cars need to be made cheaper...but the events more expensive? The only way I could see that the events would be made longer is to reduce the number of them. I proposed this on my blog and asked some people who actually organize rallies and they gave a big no. https://itgetsfasternow.com/2020/06/...in-three-days/
This is as much of a guess as proposing that rallies could gain more audience if they were run on only stadium stages and decided in one day, because hey, F1 is still more popular!. I want some data to back your opinion. And saying "it was better in the 80's" doesn't cut it, the world has changed.Quote:
"who would benefit from longer rallies - old farts" Maybe a massive group of people who currently don't watch, who would prefer a different format. Are you able to consider that a new format will attract new fans?
I still want to hear what is the benefit of increasing the endurance element? We have Rally Raids which have that element, how popular are they?
Remember bevore COVID-19 there was this thing called Global Warming and many car manufacturers seemed to be in dire straits? There simply is less money to spend in motorsport and that's why there's no more teams competing.
Going to hybrids is a step onto the correct path, we need to have rallying have some way to market their greener models, which is what they sell now, even though the cars aren't going to be less ecological with the 2022 rules. But for car manufacturers, it's a big thing.
Again we need to remember that this is Wilson talk, he is saying this in public to persuade Ford to give more money. He does the same at the end of every season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Take a good look on the eWRC site and you can see that WRC cars sales collapse started long before 2017; from 2014 onwards R5 cars become the main category in national and regional series and although WRC cars were still allowed, sometimes in the detuned RRC version, very few drivers managed to run them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
No matter how vital selling top cars is to MSport, the FIA can’t simply impose Rally1 cars use in national (that’s up to ASN’s) or regional series when they’re expected to cost only slightly less than a current WRC car.
It’s already hard to get a decent entry level in series like the ERC, the MERC or the APRC (and the BRC, btw) with R5 cars; with these Rally1 cars it’d be impossible. Unless Rally1 class becomes cheaper than projected, it simply can’t be a solution for national or regional rallying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Power
If AnttiL's glasses are a better perspective than my doom and gloom, then why have we got not one manufacturer signed up to the 2022 regs yet, and none more on the horizon?
You say the reason more manufacturer's are not interested was because of the increasing costs? So you really believe that? The cost (within reason, of course) does not matter at all if the manufacturer gets perceived value from the marketing exercise that is rallying. I.E. if they can sell enough cars off the back of it, they'll get involved.
I understand that the WRC is fighting for a smaller piece of pie than in the past and it's made increasingly hard because of the other series that are more 'current' in terms of EV / Hybrid, meaning the WRC is lagging but the current format just isn't selling itself to the manufacturers.
Am I right in thinking that Toyota are there because of the chairman's love affair with the sport? hell, what happens when he's not interested anymore / not in that position?
Maybe time to flip it on it's head a bit... Let's face it, fast hatch backs are becoming less and less popular because of the fact that people are increasingly likely to think of a fast driver as a dick, for several reasons (environmental and safety mainly.
Their day is done, hence why the championship has acknowledged this and paved the way for more SUV based rally cars.
So if this kind of vehicle is becoming the norm, then does a manufacturer stand to gain more benefit from advertising the car as something that can rip along a few roads, over couple of days, faster than its rival, or would it look better if it dominated it over a (still quick) event that celebrated more of a reliability victory?
Again, just my opinion, as is the fact that the current state of affairs doesn't look good.
Car changes needed / event changes needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
I didn’t nail my flag to the mast and say I’m certain that longer events are the answer.... it’s just a thought.
I’m saying what we have now isn’t.