another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I believe that the American gun lobby has done a magnificent marketing job in convincing Americans that sport rifles, similar to assault rifles, are a necessity. Who really needs a .223 or .300 caliber semi-automatic rifle, with 30-round magazines, and 250+ yard range? Nobody, unless you're intent on killing people with brutal efficiency.

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A gruesome thought experiment. Do you think that more or less damage would have been done at the Sandy Hook school had the shooter used a pump action shot gun loaded with buck shot and a couple of 6 round revolvers?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

This thread is full of 'telling you more', sadly, it appears that to be in one ear, and out the other.

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As you are apparently the only one with a right to an opinion, I suppose you are right. Thanks for the lesson.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

A gruesome thought experiment. Do you think that more or less damage would have been done at the Sandy Hook school had the shooter used a pump action shot gun loaded with buck shot and a couple of 6 round revolvers?

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Do you think that more or less damage would have been done at the Sandy Hook school had the madman used an HB Pencil? That's closer to the situation we have in Australia.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Most of the items you flippently suggest to remove have been designed to preserve life, a gun, no matter how you dress up it's use, is meant for one thing - to take a life.

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Burglar calls 911 to save himself from gun-wielding homeowner | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News

I can dig up hundreds more if you would like, that's just one recent example.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Maybe if I was a born and bred American, I'd have been brainwashed before my 5th birthday, bus as it is, from where I am, the whole idea and attitude towards guns in the USA is alien.

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And that is fine. But do you not have enough respect for people with differing opinions to see the other side?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Do you think that more or less damage would have been done at the Sandy Hook school had the madman used an HB Pencil? That's closer to the situation we have in Australia.

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So you have outlawed knives, swords, bows/arrows, baseball bats as well?

Really this is the bottom line ... This nut job was going to kill people last Friday. All we have been doing for about 30 pages now, is arguing that if we would just give up some of our rights, the body count would have been slightly less. Really that's it. When we limit these types of debates to "gun control" that is all we are doing, quibbling over body count. The roots of the problem are MUCH deeper than allowing law abiding citizens to own guns.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

As you are apparently the only one with a right to an opinion, I suppose you are right. Thanks for the lesson.

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Pah, it's nothing - no charge on this occasion y'all. ;)

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Burglar calls 911 to save himself from gun-wielding homeowner | The Sideshow - Yahoo! News

I can dig up hundreds more if you would like, that's just one recent example.



And that is fine. But do you not have enough respect for people with differing opinions to see the other side?

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Did they bang him up for B&E?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

The roots of the problem are MUCH deeper than allowing law abiding citizens to own guns.

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I can agree with that. While I see a point in restricting access to deadlier weapons, I perfectly reaize that a technical solution isn't going to have an impact unless you change people's mentality. And that would be a tall order.

Speaking of pencils, knives, etc., I can recall that Joker in the "Dark Knight" movie graphically demonstarted it on the big screen how to kill with a pencil. Then a nutter dressed as Joker attacked a kindergraten in Belgium and stabbed children with a knife. No restrictions are going to work unless one erases violence from human hearts and minds.

Could we compare this to asbestos ?

It was used extensively for years as a fire retardant in buildings , but has now been judged to be too dangerous .
It was a very useful substance , but is now seen as deadly .
And , though firmly entrenched in the walls , it is being removed , or sealed in harder , to prevent us being harmed .

With proper handling , it can be safe , but our governments(well , mine is waffling on the subject for economic reasons) have banned the stuff because we can't be trusted to do that handling properly .

I might add here , that there are different forms of asbestos , and some are much deadlier than others . Some , during processing , cause far less particulate issue .
Those unfamiliar with this , call for a blanket ban .
Those in the industry see a difference .


Any comparison that can be made here ?

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Could we compare this to asbestos ?

It was used extensively for years as a fire retardant in buildings , but has now been judged to be too dangerous .
It was a very useful substance , but is now seen as deadly .
And , though firmly entrenched in the walls , it is being removed , or sealed in harder , to prevent us being harmed .

With proper handling , it can be safe , but our governments(well , mine is waffling on the subject for economic reasons) have banned the stuff because we can't be trusted to do that handling properly .

I might add here , that there are different forms of asbestos , and some are much deadlier than others . Some , during processing , cause far less particulate issue .
Those unfamiliar with this , call for a blanket ban .
Those in the industry see a difference .


Any comparison that can be made here ?

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Not really sure that's a good comparison, because of the timescale for asbestos to take a life - repeated exposure over a length of time.

It's removal is to prevent future deaths.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

The roots of the problem are MUCH deeper than allowing law abiding citizens to own guns.

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Adam, Adam, Adam Smith
Listen what I charge you with!
Didn't you say in a class on day,
That selfishness was bound to pay?
Of all doctrines that was the Pith,
Wasn't it, wasn't it, wasn't it, Smith?
- Stephen Leacock

"Every man is, no doubt, by nature, first and principally recommended to his own care; and as he is fitter to take care of himself than of any other person, it is fit and right that it should be so. However, if he should continue to defend his self and his person and not prefer his neighbour or his nation above his own self, greater and more irreprable evils will be done. Death is the greatest evil which can be done, and to place the atrocious ability into a mans hands to defend his self, strains every nerve to outstrip his competitors. It is a violation of fair play with no end."
- Adam Smith, The Theory of Moral Sentiment, 1759

I think that the root of the problem is selfishness. America as the vanguard of individualism is the nation with the single greatest outworking of it's results. Smith warned of the arms race which you're now forced to participate in.
You can simple refuse to do nothing as a nation, just like you always do.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

America will take 3 weeks to flagellate itself, make crying noises, boo hoo hoo and all that, forget about it and then wait another six months when another massacre will occur (in which time another 5750 people will have died because of guns) and we can all go around the merry go round again.

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Incidentally, according to a writer in this month's issue of Quadrant Magazine (a publication here in Australia) you should expect the next massacre of 20 or more people within 3 days either way of the 27th of April, 2013.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

The roots of the problem are MUCH deeper than allowing law abiding citizens to own guns.

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But this is the problem, isn't it. Who are the Law abiding Citizens because some of the people on here in favour of Law abiding Citizens being allowed to legally own guns are in fact, Felons. I can think of 2 that have admitted such serious gun crimes that had they been caught, would have resulted in multi-year jail terms.

When people argueing in favour of guns are the criminals you talk about, doesn't that suggest to you that there is no logical way gun ownership can work?

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Originally Posted by Rollo

I think that the root of the problem is selfishness. America as the vanguard of individualism is the nation with the single greatest outworking of it's results.

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I don't see individualism as a "problem". Rational self interest is, in my opinion, one of the best motivating factors in history. If governments would simply leave people alone, over the long term many of the "problems" with society would naturally cure themselves. Notice I said most, not all.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

Smith warned of the arms race which you're now forced to participate in.

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No one is forced to participate in any sort of arms race. I don't own a gun. Millions of Americans don't own a gun. Who is forcing anyone to do anything? Oh yeah, you are, buy trying to force people to give up a Constitutionally guaranteed right.

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Originally Posted by Rollo

You can simple refuse to do nothing as a nation, just like you always do.

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Someone said something to me the other day that really hurt my feelings. I suppose we should "do something" about that as well. Let's ban that nasty 1st Amendment too.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

doesn't that suggest to you that there is no logical way gun ownership can work?

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What suggests to you that gun control can work?

NRA guy now giving a press conference.

One of his quotes and given agenda.

"The only thing that will stop a bad man with a gun is a good man with a gun"


He also means:
*Come buy our guns, be a good man.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

But this is the problem, isn't it. Who are the Law abiding Citizens because some of the people on here in favour of Law abiding Citizens being allowed to legally own guns are in fact, Felons. I can think of 2 that have admitted such serious gun crimes that had they been caught, would have resulted in multi-year jail terms.

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Or, in one case, one who's either a criminal or a liar.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

And that is fine. But do you not have enough respect for people with differing opinions to see the other side?

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Not on this issue. Why should I have any respect for an opinion with which I disagree more vehemently than most? By all means hold the opinion, but don't expect respect for it. After all, I'm sure you don't respect the opinions of al-Qaida, do you?

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Or try to legislate away every eventual possibility as you are doing.

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No, it's just the one I'd seek to legislate away. Quite different to 'every'. Enough of the hyperbole.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Why not?

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Because, for some reason, I have an aversion to firearms. Can't think why I don't see them as a force for good.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Can't think why I don't see them as a force for good.

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Home invasion suspect killed in gunfight at DeKalb apartment... | www.ajc.com
Pastor pulls gun on unsuspecting burglar | ksl.com
Police: CMPD officer fires shot at would-be intruder | www.wsoctv.com
Movie theater shooting triggered by romantic break-up | WOAI: San Antonio News
Internet cafe employee fires back at armed robbers | 9 On Your Side
Intruder killed in Henderson home invasion :: WRAL.com
Teen Burglary Suspect Shot By Homeowner Identified | NBC 4i
Nick Meli, who had a concealed weapon, thought about shooting Oregon mall killer

Do I need to go on? This is with about 30 seconds worth of googling around. Enough of the hyperbole, indeed.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Home invasion suspect killed in gunfight at DeKalb apartment... | www.ajc.com
Pastor pulls gun on unsuspecting burglar | ksl.com
Police: CMPD officer fires shot at would-be intruder | www.wsoctv.com
Movie theater shooting triggered by romantic break-up | WOAI: San Antonio News
Internet cafe employee fires back at armed robbers | 9 On Your Side
Intruder killed in Henderson home invasion :: WRAL.com
Teen Burglary Suspect Shot By Homeowner Identified | NBC 4i
Nick Meli, who had a concealed weapon, thought about shooting Oregon mall killer

Do I need to go on? This is with about 30 seconds worth of googling around. Enough of the hyperbole, indeed.

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Ah yes, all very convincing. How conveniently you forget, or choose to ignore, the damage also done by weapons.

I find the opinions of you and your ilk on this topic indefensible. The NRA press conference today was an absolute disgrace, a shameful exhibition of ill-conceived arguments put forward by trigger-happy madmen the like of which I would not trust to wield a shovel in my vicinity, let alone a weapon. At once you criticise others for their lack of respect for what you perceive to be liberty and freedom, and advocate the development of what would be, in effect, an armed police state.

4 dead and 3 state troopers injured. I'll let that speak for itself.

DA: 4 dead, including gunman, along rural Pa. road

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Originally Posted by Dave B

4 dead and 3 state troopers injured. I'll let that speak for itself.

DA: 4 dead, including gunman, along rural Pa. road

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A very poorly written uninformative report. Who were the four dead people? Were they armed? Were they 'innocent victims' shot by the gunman or were they 'felons' shot by the state troopers?

delete.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Ah yes, all very convincing. How conveniently you forget, or choose to ignore, the damage also done by weapons.

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I have not forgotten, nor ignored the fact that madmen have chosen to use a firearm to spread their madness all across this world. Quite the contrary, it is you who seem to have forgotten or ignored the fact that firearms actually save lives when used in self defense.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I find the opinions of you and your ilk on this topic indefensible.

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And I find your opinion and those of your ilk indefensible. You go and ask any one of those people in the links I provided, if they think their opinion is indefensible, if they were paranoid, if they live their lives in fear. Lord knows there house was defensible thanks to the rights guaranteed to them by the 2nd Amendment. Oh darn there it is again, Europeans have no rights. (I'll spell it out for you this time, that was sarcasm.)

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I have not forgotten, nor ignored the fact that madmen have chosen to use a firearm to spread their madness all across this world. Quite the contrary, it is you who seem to have forgotten or ignored the fact that firearms actually save lives when used in self defense.

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I have not forgotten this; rather, I dismiss your view out of hand, the possession of a firearm for self-defence purposes being something I would never advocate under any circumstances.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

And I find your opinion and those of your ilk indefensible. You go and ask any one of those people in the links I provided, if they think their opinion is indefensible, if they were paranoid, if they live their lives in fear. Lord knows there house was defensible thanks to the rights guaranteed to them by the 2nd Amendment. Oh darn there it is again, Europeans have no rights. (I'll spell it out for you this time, that was sarcasm.)

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They may not believe themselves to be paranoid, so ingrained is the culture of firearm ownership, but I say again that they are, for there is no other explanation for it. I would rather take my chances without a firearm — not that I believe it to be a case of taking any chance at all, because I cannot envisage a situation in which discharging a firearm would represent a reasonable response.

And if we're talking about rights, what about the right of 20-odd schoolchildren not to get shot? I've said it before and I'll say it again. The view you espouse boils down to the fact that you would rather see the same thing happen again than any tighter restrictions on gun ownership. I find this breathtaking.

(Oh, and a quick note about sarcasm — the trick is to make it clear without saying so, not to have to explain it, nor to make it indistinguishable from opinions you do actually possess.)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I have not forgotten this; rather, I dismiss your view out of hand, the possession of a firearm for self-defence purposes being something I would never advocate under any circumstances.



They may not believe themselves to be paranoid, so ingrained is the culture of firearm ownership, but I say again that they are, for there is no other explanation for it. I would rather take my chances without a firearm — not that I believe it to be a case of taking any chance at all, because I cannot envisage a situation in which discharging a firearm would represent a reasonable response.

And if we're talking about rights, what about the right of 20-odd schoolchildren not to get shot? I've said it before and I'll say it again. The view you espouse boils down to the fact that you would rather see the same thing happen again than any tighter restrictions on gun ownership. I find this breathtaking.

(Oh, and a quick note about sarcasm — the trick is to make it clear without saying so, not to have to explain it, nor to make it indistinguishable from opinions you do actually possess.)

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You are out of line. You and your ilk preach about tolerance and understand for others, but you "dismiss my view out of hand". Go tell those people that saved their lives, and the lives of their families that you don't advocate self-defense. How can you not see that this murderous psychopath was going to do something like this no matter the law? Outlaw every gun today. There will still be millions on the street. If somehow you could make your law tough enough to keep this vile scum from having an "assault" rifle, he would have had a shot gun. Outlaw shot guns, he would have found a sword. Outlaw swords, he would have made a bomb. If you can outlaw evil why hasn't the outright ban on murder stopped this sick twisted crap from happening?

You claim that somehow I'm happy that 20 defenseless innocent children were murdered by a madman. That is just sick and twisted. I used to have respect for you

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You are out of line. You and your ilk preach about tolerance and understand for others, but you "dismiss my view out of hand".

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And what are you doing with my view, other than dismissing it out of hand?

In no way am I out of line. Why should I have any respect for your viewpoint? I disagree completely with it. Worse, I think it's wrong-headed, ignorant and inherently dangerous. What is there for me to respect in that? I'm not going to lie.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Go tell those people that saved their lives, and the lives of their families that you don't advocate self-defense.

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And you go to the parents of those children and tell them your view. I know in whose shoes I'd rather be.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You claim that somehow I'm happy that 20 defenseless innocent children were murdered by a madman. That is just sick and twisted. I used to have respect for you

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This is a typical example of how you and some of your countrymen see no nuance in an argument. I did not say that you were happy they were murdered; I said that you would rather it happened again than see tighter restrictions on firearm ownership. This statement is true, isn't it? How can it not be, given your views?

So, try answering again, this time the question I posed rather than the one you saw in order to try unsuccessfully to make a point.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And what are you doing with my view, other than dismissing it out of hand?

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I am not dismissing your view. You think guns are dangerous, and you are scared of them. So I don't think you should have one. Simple, you live your life, I'll live mine. But for some reason you insist on forcing your morality upon me.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

And you go to the parents of those children and tell them your view. I know in whose shoes I'd rather be.

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If I ever met them I would tell them my view. That I am very sorry that this tragedy happened to them. I wish that our mental health system would not have failed this obviously deranged individual. That I wish there would have been some form of security at their school to stop this from happening or at the very least lessening it. And that if they ever need anything in the form of help, support, or love, I am at their disposal.

Now you go tell the hundreds of thousands of people (maybe millions) that have protected themselves or their loved ones from a madman by using a firearm, that you have done, and will continue to do everything in your power to ensure that the next time they are threatened by a murderous lunatic that they are completely defenseless.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

This is a typical example of how you and some of your countrymen see no nuance in an argument. I did not say that you were happy they were murdered; I said that you would rather it happened again than see tighter restrictions on firearm ownership. This statement is true, isn't it? How can it not be, given your views?

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And you lecture me on seeing nuance? Laughable.

Do you have your speech ready to explain why you want to disarm those that have saved themselves yet?

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Race, my mind boggles as to how The United States of America is going to even partially get rid of 200+million guns. How can this be processed?

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Melt them and make spoons out of the resulting alloy?!

I'm just considering the practicalities of this "armed guard in every school" nonsense. My old school covered 30 acres and comprises about a dozen buildings. Even assuming the plan isn't utterly bonkers, exactly how many guards would be required to cover a site like that?

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Thank you for the math lesson. The point was, the registered owner is required to keep individual guns locked, with a stricter standard of storing locked guns in locked storage for homes with children under 18. The son was not the registered owner and SHOULD NOT have had access to the locked weapons. The keys to my weapons are in my pocket with me at all times and kept in my finger print controlled gunsafe at night where only I can access them. I am a responsible gun owner. She clearly was not unfortunately for the 28, she clearly was not considering she had a 20 year old son with known neurological and emotional problems.

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The guns were not locked because the law requires them to be locked away only from people under 18 years old. Seems that the Math lesson was not enough.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

And tax me 60+% of my personal earnings to pay for those too damed lazy to work for it... Naaah, you can keep that system. Government regulation and the socialized program we already have is 90% of the problem. an I know this first hand. I work in it and strive every day to eliminate the problems we do have where I am able.

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:rolleyes: I'll better not comment on this one.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

It is at a gun club I'd like to point out.. Not at a shopping mall.

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You can also call it an asylum.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Children learning about guns, their safe operation and use, is not a bad thing.

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You're right, it is certainly good for kids to know how they can safely shoot someone! :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

A gun gives one a real sense of power , and is a real thrill to shoot .

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That might apply to weak people.

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

Gun ownership has been a heated topic of discussion between my wife and I for a couple of months now, before all this transpired. My brother has a veritable arsenal--a Glock 19, two Kel-tec Sub2000s, and about 3-4 others. He took a 5-day shooting course and has a permit to carry. He's over-the-top, but even my 70 year-old mother has three handguns and a shotgun.

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:s

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Originally Posted by Starter

Or perhaps the students will feel safer, just as they would if a uniformed policeman was in the classroom with them?

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Yeah that would be the real freedom in life, learning with a uniformed police man in the classroom!

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I have seen the light!! Thank you BDunnell. I finally understand, being prepared for something, however remote the chances of it happening are, will only instill feelings of insecurity. You're right! How could I have ever been so dumb?

Now to go home and remove all the smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors from my home. Rip out the seat belts from my car. Cancel all my insurance. Remove the warning labels off of everything that I own. And live the good life of not having any feelings of insecurity.

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Hmmm...

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Agreed, every bit of which is already in place in many jurisdictions in the US,including connecticut where the latest tragedy occurred.

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Which proves that it is not enough.

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

They threw this data to us on TV this evening. (no source was offered though)

USA is 5% of earth's population

USA owns 50% of earth's guns

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Rather sad.