Team orders at Ferrari

From Motorsport.com :
"Felipe Massa on Thursday insisted he is not Ferrari's number two driver, confirming he is aiming for victory this weekend in Hungary.

Since Hockenheim, where the Brazilian obeyed a team order to let teammate Fernando Alonso win, Brazilian cartoonists have depicted Massa as a puppet.

"People will see him now as a 'yes man' who bends to the will of the company," David Coulthard wrote in his latest Telegraph column.

"And maybe they are right. Team player or stooge? The line is thin."

Mercedes' Norbert Haug said at a pre-race press conference in Hungary that the application of a driver hierarchy can affect motivation.

"If you say 'you are number two' ... it's a complex issue," said the German.

"If the drivers are not fully motivated you will not achieve anything. That needs to be kept in mind," added Haug.

Massa told reporters at the Hungaroring that he is aiming to win this weekend's race, where last year he suffered life-threatening injuries in a qualifying crash.

"The time I have to I say I am the number two driver, I will not race anymore," he pledged.

Earlier, he arrived at the Budapest venue with Ferrari team boss Stefano Domenicali."


I have also read that he has said that he won't move over for Alonso to pass again .
Has he got an "openly defying the management is OK" clause in his contract ?

Wow. Everyone seems to know for a fact that Massa was ordered to move over. Ok, where is the radio transmission copy that says, "Massa let Alonso past. That is an order." What? There isn't one?

Massa made up his own mind to let Alonso past. He could have continued racing Alonso if he wanted, he chose not too.

And yes Homer Simpson, we are all free to make our own decisions in life, no matter how nice or bad they are. The ones we choose define our future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skc

Why don't we all agree to disagree on this one. If 555 thinks he wasn't ordered over then that's his opinion and lets respect it.

We have a different opinion which is equally as valid.

Both can be right because he wasn't actually ordered to let Alonso through but the FIA and overwhelming majority of viewers believe the radio transmission was a coded order.

Lets move along?

---

Good to see that at least one other person here arrived at this thread with their brain engaged.

Bagwan has already posted a report of Massa's comments, and they've also appeared on Autosport.

This stood out to me:

Quote:

---

When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

---

So why was he ordered/did he choose to move over in Germany :confused:

Only Massa knows the answer to that question.

Massa sticks to the party linethat it was in the best interests of the team:

Quote:

---

If the team really has the chance to win the championship, I want the best for the team

---

So remind me, what's the difference between 25+18 and 18+25?

I think he's confusing "the team" with "my team mate" :s

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Massa sticks to the party linethat it was in the best interests of the team:



So remind me, what's the difference between 25+18 and 18+25?

I think he's confusing "the team" with "my team mate" :s

---

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redson

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.

---

But that entirely conflicts with Massa's statement that he's not a #2 driver - the season is only just over the halfway point. Maybe he genuinely believes that in his head; maybe he doesn't want to admit to the world that he's no longer in the championship hunt because of a clause in his contract.

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redson

The difference is that with Alonso winning the race Ferrari have more chances of winning both titles than if Massa had won the race.

---

But if the same situation arises this weekend Massa has said "I will win".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

---

Pointless

Gerard Lopez has already admitted that he's building the team round Kubica because the Pole wants preferential treatment

Nice tweet from @willbuxton:

Anagram of "Fernando Alonso Felipe Massa" = "F one fans rile on pass ALO made."

:laugh:

Seems to me Felipe is saying if he had his time again he'd defy the team and keep the win.

I think he should have, too. The team would've been mad, but I think he's found the alternative is worse.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

But that entirely conflicts with Massa's statement that he's not a #2 driver - the season is only just over the halfway point. Maybe he genuinely believes that in his head; maybe he doesn't want to admit to the world that he's no longer in the championship hunt because of a clause in his contract.

Either way, he's been shafted by Ferrari. He's not the first and he won't be the last. Such a shame. Me, I'd be on the phone to Renault offering to replace Petrov. Next race.

---

They pay him millions to race the car .
Let's have a little perspective here . That's millions , Dave .

He's simply not as fast as his team-mate .

When he's been in the hunt , at the same team , he's been given the favoured position , but now cries about the shoe being on the other foot .
Felipe baby and his buddy Dyer should feel pretty happy they still are employed .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

but now cries about the shoe being on the other foot .

---

Not on the other foot! He drives for another team altogether: Mercedes.

Surely he doesn't have to move over for him any more? :cool:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Why would Chris Dyer be responsible apart from helping to make the decision for the team order? Him and Domenicali would have discussed the strategy and then asked Smedley to pass on the message. Maybe Dyer should have adopted his old role as race engineer and done the dirty work himself? That aside I still don't understand why you think he is lucky to have his job? :\

---

Sorry , henners , I meant Smedley , not Dyers .


One thing I haven't seen noted anywhere , is that Fernando , as a result of taking first instead of second , is now within a win of the leading man in the championship , at 24 points back .

Realizing this , it shows far more obviously , why Ferrari did what they did .
They are now one win away from the lead .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bagwan

Sorry , henners , I meant Smedley , not Dyers .


One thing I haven't seen noted anywhere , is that Fernando , as a result of taking first instead of second , is now within a win of the leading man in the championship , at 24 points back .

Realizing this , it shows far more obviously , why Ferrari did what they did .
They are now one win away from the lead .

---

:s ailor: Bags the gap is 34 points:

The Boss....157
Fred..........123

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.

F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.

---

...yes, but they were already 1-2 so this was a decision to help alonso in the WDC and give him a win that he did not deserve. All this talk about team is meaningless since they wee on schedule for maximum points already.

:s ailor: This situation reminds me of when Bill Clinton admitted he smoked ganja but insisted that didn't inhale :confused: :s mokin:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by truefan72

...yes, but they were already 1-2 so this was a decision to help alonso in the WDC and give him a win that he did not deserve. All this talk about team is meaningless since they wee on schedule for maximum points already.

---

True, but as everybody keeps saying it's the WDC that matters. Take 2008 for example. Ferrari were gutted despite having won the WCC. McLaren were jubilant despite, in theory, them having won nothing and Hamilton having won the WDC. People kept going on about Ferrari not having won a championship for 21 years despite the fact that they had won 3 WCC in that time.

The WDC is a team victory as much as it is a driver one. Team's will do whatever it takes to get one of their drivers the WDC. That, by nessecity, means one of their drivers has to lose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tazio

:s ailor: Bags the gap is 34 points:

The Boss....157
Fred..........123

---

I guess that would be why nobody has mentioned it .
Never was too good with them number things .

By the way , I think you should call him "Hugo" , instead of "the boss" .
That way it won't seem like one driver is being favoured on that team , too . Hee hee .

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/...0/56ec0af13956

Quote:

---

Speaking ahead of this weekend's Hungarian Grand Prix, Massa says he'll quit the day he becomes a number two driver and that Alonso is not number one at Ferrari.

---

is it goodbye massa

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark? :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

"They gave Felipe a good opportunity to win the grand prix as well," said Webber. "They gave him the chance to win the race up to the point where he couldn't pull away from Fernando. Obviously they had a decision in the team where the fastest guy in the team wins the race. The fastest guy on that day won the race."

The faster guy was behind, a safe overtaking manouvre was required where one car did not try to ram the other car like Vettel did in Turkey, the pass was made, and Ferrari scored a 1,2.

What the hell is wrong with that?

This thread is going round and round in circles, and basically getting nowhere. Time to MOVE ON!

Of course, when Vettel buggers up his start and Mark is leading, and then Vettel comes powering up from behind, I wonder what Horner will say to Mark?

Like:" Mark, Seb is behind you and he is going faster, Mark! do you hear Mark? Do you understand Mark? Hello Mark! Hello Mark! testing, testing, testing 1,2,3 Mark ! can you hear me, Mark? :D

---

:D Mateschitz said that whoever is in front stays in front. He does NOT want what happened in Turkey or Silverstone to recur and the object is to win the Constructors title as well as the WDC.

I think that the RBR managers are well aware that NOT winning at least ONE title will be worse than the days of making THAT phone call back to Maranello to report uncompetitive news.

Yeah! :( the penalty requires them to drink ten tins of that goop. :eek:

Looks like I missed a lot of fun. :D

Anyway the Austrian commentator mentioned yesterday that the 'Alonso is faster than you' order has been issued 3 times before Massa finally moved over in a blatant way.
This explains why Alonso was complaining earlier in the race and also makes it clear that Massa didn't do it out of love for the team or Alonso, but because of the pressure put on him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Bagwan has already posted a report of Massa's comments, and they've also appeared on Autosport.

This stood out to me:

Quote:

---

When asked what would happen if he was faced with the same situation this weekend, Massa replied: "I will win."

---

---

http://thumbsnap.com/i/a5LBlgLP.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

Does cycling have a specific rule which clearly states that orders team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited?

I repeat - and I'm a little tired of repeating it - there is certainly a debate to be had whether the rule needs clarifying or abolishing; there are many posts here sympathetic to the idea that team orders are part and parcel of the sport. But the point remains that Ferrari signed up for the 2010 season knowing full well such orders were prohibited, then chose to break the rules.

---

So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wedge

http://thumbsnap.com/i/a5LBlgLP.jpg

---

of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady and wants you..... she heard you got a quarter and that you were real fast, much faster than I will ever hope to be...........something like .6 of a second, correct?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tinchote

So did McLaren in 2008, but your argument is that because it was not blatant (and because it is the team you like, of course) then it's not so important.

You need to make up your mind: either "rules are rules" or either it's a matter of interpretation. If it is the second, then you should temper your opinions a little.

---

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by markabilly

of course, she's donKey Jote's old lady

---

eh? I didn't reckognise her... I thought yer sister wasn't allowed out without her paper bag anyway. :confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

---

tamper your onions a little instead then? :erm:

I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daika

Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

---

And I think the chance is big that he will do it again tomorrow.

- Massa = fast starter
- Alonso = bad starter and already one jumpstart in 2010

The pair to look tomorrow at 1400CET ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daika

I don't get it when people say that Alonso was faster than Massa. Why do those people exclude something significant as overtaking? Massa did it, at the start overtaking Alonso.

---

They should go watch rallying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again. Use the search facility if you care, but do not ever tell me to temper my opinion.

---

I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.

This whole episode didn't look good, but if it was my favourite driver (Lewis) gaining an advantage from all this then I wouldn't be complaining. For that reason I won't be complaining about Fernando gaining an advantage.

http://sniffpetrol.com/wp-content/up...lonsoMassa.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dave Brockman

I've explained about six times on various threads why there's no comparison with the two situations, and I really cannot be bothered explaining it again

---

If Heikki was said to be impeding Hamilton's progress in 2008 then the same could be argued for last week in that Massa was backing Alonso into Vettel compromising Ferrari's race for a 1-2 finish which even Adam Cooper, who didn't advocate Ferrari's team orders, thinks holds substantial weight even if Ferrari did eventually finish 1-2:

Quote:

---

http://formula-one.speedtv.com/artic...rand-prix//P2/

One interesting aspect to the affair is that neither Alonso nor Stefano Domenicali majored on the fact that Sebastian Vettel was not far behind – and that Massa in effect should have either gotten a move on or let Fernando past – by way of justification. It’ll be interesting if they try to use that now.

---

see back in the days of TAD when elect boxes were not regulated the pit would just reduce your rpms and they hence no team orders.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tinchote

I'm just mentioning that you both said "rules are rules" and that "it depends on how it's done". Weird standards.

---

Not at all, dear chap, not at all.

Sigh. Let's go through it again, really simply.

Ferrari swapped their drivers who were running first and second. They literally could not do better, and whichever way you slice it 25+18 = 18+25.

The overwhelming majority of viewers were in no doubt that they had heard a clear and unambiguous team order over the radio, an opinion which was lent weight by Smedley's words on the slowing down lap, and then as if further proof was needed along comes Luca di Montezemolo blowing the gaffe wide open by saying "that's how it's always been done".

If Ferrari want to say "it's for the good of the team" then fair enough - I actually have some sympathy with that - but they can't in the same breath say that Massa isn't a #2 driver. Both statements can't be true.

McLaren in 2008 then. Because of a cock-up with the pitstops, Hamilton was being held up by his team mate and denied the chance of chasing down faster cars up front. Heikki let him past, and there was no doubt whatsoever that he was correct to do so as Lewis went on to win, while the Finn only had the pace for 5th. It was obvious to a blind monkey at the back that Hamilton was faster than Heikki.

So, the differences between 2008 and 2010 are as follows. There was no call over the radio to McLaren, there was to Ferrari. McLaren benefited as their driver went on to win, Ferrari already had 1st place and literally could not improve. No other team complained at the time about Heikki's move. Heikki appears to have acted independently, whereas everybody heard Smedley on the radio to Massa. The stewards did not investigate McLaren, presumably because they didn't feel there was a case to answer, and because they didn't feel it was a team order.

Please confirm you understand the above :p

Edit: the notion (above) that Ferrari's 1-2 was under threat from Vettel holds little water, as Vettel only began to close up on Massa once the demotivated Brazillian put in a series of mediocre laps. Until the team order, Ferrari owned that race. And that's what makes it worse.