The Ferrari thread !

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Originally Posted by ioan

But the chassis will be different from this year's one, plus this year's car never really behaved great so the data is pretty much useless if you want to do a better car.
Also the tires will be different next season.

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so if they no this year is bad, the data will be useful to know what they should be aiming for/to avoid.

and for all the shouting, the car has not turned out all that bad - consisitent points scorer, race winner, albeit a tricky handler, but once the team leabned to set it up well and Kimi and Massa got to grips with its nuances they got some decent results. it might not be what Ferrari should be, but it wasn't a disaster either

there is enough carry over in the rules that this years experience will still be useful

Data about a crap car is still useful data - it does at least teach you what not to do.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

so if they no this year is bad, the data will be useful to know what they should be aiming for/to avoid.

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How exactly?

When you have a concept that works like a dream you know you are spot on and you can use it to develop a better one from it.
When you have a bad one you can not use it to build on it and you can not use it to produce a new concept either cause you don't know what's wrong otherwise you wouldn't have come up with a dud in the first instance.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

and for all the shouting, the car has not turned out all that bad - consisitent points scorer, race winner, albeit a tricky handler, but once the team leabned to set it up well and Kimi and Massa got to grips with its nuances they got some decent results. it might not be what Ferrari should be, but it wasn't a disaster either

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The car didn't have enough potential to develop into a championship contender, thus in the F1 world it's a failure. I'm sorry to say it because I loved it's looks ever since it was launched, but it basically is a failure.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

there is enough carry over in the rules that this years experience will still be useful

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Like having 4 wheels (albeit different dimension and compound tires), an engine but probably without KERS, front and rear wings but with different shapes and with different relative positions, different minimum weight, no more refueling, most probably a longer wheelbase etc...

Looks like they did the right choice to go for a completely new concept.

you'd argue to the death if anyone questions anything remotely Ferrrai wouldn't you. apologies for questioning the oracle and guardian of all knowledge Ferrrari.

you know best. the team will ignore everything from this year, good or bad. if they do then they deserve to repeat their mistakes - as do you

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Originally Posted by Robinho

you'd argue to the death if anyone questions anything remotely Ferrrai wouldn't you. apologies for questioning the oracle and guardian of all knowledge Ferrrari.

you know best. the team will ignore everything from this year, good or bad. if they do then they deserve to repeat their mistakes - as do you

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I see your technical knowledge came to an end and now you're starting attacking me because I'm a Ferrari fan.

Are you a Ferrari fan? No? Don't post around here just for the sake of trolling.

i'm not trolling, i was raising a discussion based on a few thoughts i had, nothing more - i'm not trying to re-write history or telling anyone what they should be doing, only sharing what i thought about the possible advatgae in knowledge Ferrari may gain from carrying Kers this year.

i'd be very surprised if they have learned nothing form this, i'm not suggesting they design there whole car around this, only that they may use this experience when approaching some elements of the car - is it really that massive a leap to consider? rather than attacking my technical knowledge, which i assume makes you feel superior

you are the one who has gone all defensive just because its Ferrari rather than entertaining a discussion. i'm not attacking you because your a Ferrari fan. i'm an F1 fan and Ferrari is part of that, i'm interested in what they are doing and i think they might take something fomr this years experience into next year - god forbid i actually say something controversial

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Originally Posted by Robinho

i'm not trolling, i was raising a discussion based on a few thoughts i had, nothing more

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And I was answering it in very civilized terms just to find myself attacked in your previous post. I call that trolling.

Garry was right, this year's car is not a good basis of any kind for next season and I'm yet to see you prove the contrary with some tangible technical proof.

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Originally Posted by ioan

And I was answering it in very civilized terms just to find myself attacked in your previous post. I call that trolling.

Garry was right, this year's car is not a good basis of any kind for next season and I'm yet to see you prove the contrary with some tangible technical proof.

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i'll agree to disagree, cos we're going nowhere here.

i never said this years car was going to be a basis for next year, only that the team may have learnt a few things about carrying weight that might be useful next year. now you want technical proof - presumabley next years car, something i think even you, Mike Coughlan or Nigel Stepney would struggle to show.

if you took my post as an atack then i apologise as it wasn't one, perhaps you share more in common with Mr Button and his suppsoed frame of mind if you feel under attack.

i'll carry on in my blissful ignorance and wonder if there is anything to be gained from the experience of carrying Kers this year - i expect we'll probably never get tangible technical proof one way of the other unless someone from the team says it was not usefule, or something they learned from.

don't take it so personally, i'm only wondering about things

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Originally Posted by Robinho

i'll agree to disagree, cos we're going nowhere here.

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Agreed.

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

First, he's the wonder child kicking butt at Spa. The car wasn't even that great all season long and Kimster still managed to win! Now Satander steps in and decides to shoehorn Alonso into a Ferrari.

Now the Tifosi are mad at the Finn. Not good enough? 1 WDC and 2 WCC.

Yeah, what a loser. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

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Because he turned out to be a total disappointment who, apart from catching the coat-tails of the previous Ferrari era for his championship success (a championship he was lucky to win) did nothing to carry on the legacy that was left for him.

At least with Alonso the Tifosi will know that their man wants success and is working towards that, even if it doesn't come.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

First, he's the wonder child kicking butt at Spa. The car wasn't even that great all season long and Kimster still managed to win! Now Satander steps in and decides to shoehorn Alonso into a Ferrari.

Now the Tifosi are mad at the Finn. Not good enough? 1 WDC and 2 WCC.

Yeah, what a loser. :rolleyes:

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Because they are not fans. They are idiots.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Because he turned out to be a total disappointment...

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What?! The man isn't a super hero.

Kimi can't drive an under-performing car and win a title.

If Kimi had won the championship this year Ferrari would have still replaced him with Alonso. Satander was just throwing money into the face of Ferrari's upper echelon, of course they were going to take it by the bucket loads.

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Originally Posted by JRodrigues

Because they are not fans. They are idiots.

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lol

The tifosi amaze me in their atitiudes - which is an extension of that of the Ferrari team and attitudes which I disapprove of.

The rubbishing of Raikkonen is that of a team of ingrates that refuse to understand the driver that they have [once again - just get Niki Lauda onto the subject of Ferrari...] discarded.

The F60 was rubbish from day 1 and there is nothing to suggest that Ferrari is going to produce a car able to beat Red Bull, Mclaren or Mercedes in 2010.

Back to Kimi - he is a driver we know that has immense ability and could have won more grands prix and titles rather that a title during his career. It has always been the teams that have let him down generally.

At the two circuits that more than any other require driver input he showed that he has not changed - he is just a driver sick and tired of dealing with a crap car and fighting for fourth when in fifth - knowing that that was its maximum.

Thats Kimi. And Ferrari making him the scapegoat for its major flaws and for not being "one of the team" is the usual disgraceful Scuderia behavior.

That he in the last few races of 2010 preferred the company of the Mclaren team is an indictment of the Ferrari clique.

But at Monte Carlo and Spa he showed how bad the F60 was and that the difference was simply Kimi.

He is a driver of ironclad self-esteem and he leaves Ferrari as the driver that won them a championship. And unlike Massa who has to WORK to keep up with Kimi, has never seen the need to bad mouth or insult anyone or team.

Just watch what happens if Alonso has a "bad day at the office" and what happens if he turns any wrath towards his delicate little teammate.

It is also a disgrace and a condemnation that F1 has allowed Raikkonen to walk away so easily from f1.

Mercedes should have fought and acquiesced to keep him and agree to his demands. He is not the first and will not be the last great driver to something of a diva - but so what?

WE have all lost - and how will everyone that loves this greatest of sports not reflect quietly at both Spa and Monaco in 2010, that without Kimi the winners of these foundations of grand pix racing are less.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Why does it seem that Ferrari fans are now badmouthing Kimi?

First, he's the wonder child kicking butt at Spa. The car wasn't even that great all season long and Kimster still managed to win! Now Satander steps in and decides to shoehorn Alonso into a Ferrari.

Now the Tifosi are mad at the Finn. Not good enough? 1 WDC and 2 WCC.

Yeah, what a loser. :rolleyes:

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Not sure why you started this debate.
As far as I'm concerned I've been complaining about Kimi since last season and I did criticize him for his unfair move in Spa too.

I'll remind gloomyDAY, JRodrigo and the self proclaimed holly ghost that this thread is not for them to post in.

If you want to badmouth us Ferrari fans than please start your own trash thread.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Not sure why you started this debate.
As far as I'm concerned I've been complaining about Kimi since last season and I did criticize him for his unfair move in Spa too.

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Spa 2008? You mean when Kimi pinched Hamilton? Yeah, that was a pretty sweet move. Hamilton had to cut the chicane or slam into Kimi. Yet, Hamilton still got robbed of his win.

I'm not sure why you would complain. Kimi spun on a wet track trying to get to the top of the podium. It was a battle of titans up until the end.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I'll remind gloomyDAY, JRodrigo and the self proclaimed holly ghost that this thread is not for them to post in.

If you want to badmouth us Ferrari fans than please start your own trash thread.

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I'm not badmouthing anyone. I just thought JR's quip was funny. What I am doing is questioning the mentality of some "fans". What if Alonso fails to win the championship next year? Throw him under the bus. It's his fault too!

Ioan, what makes me chuckle is that you'll be rooting for Alonso. Never thought I'd see the day.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Spa 2008?

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Spa 2009, he overtook cars outside the track, the same reason Hamilton was given a penalty last season.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

I just thought JR's quip was funny.

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Weird definition of funny. I'd rather not say what I think of JRodriguez quips, he might fell the need to buy himself a rope.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

What I am doing is questioning the mentality of some "fans".

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Start your bash thread, this one was started by Ferrari fans for Ferrari fans in order to have a place without such gibberish like JRodriguez above remark.
Or you think that it's right to question other people's mentality while posting provocative quips?

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

What if Alonso fails to win the championship next year? Throw him under the bus. It's his fault too!

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Let's wait and see. Jumping the gun isn't very smart.

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Originally Posted by gloomyDAY

Ioan, what makes me chuckle is that you'll be rooting for Alonso. Never thought I'd see the day.

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I don't care who drives the red cars as long as he fights for the best possible results.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I don't care who drives the red cars as long as he fights for the best possible results.

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I don't believe that for one second.

You were giggling when Heidfeld crushed Alonso's wing at Monaco.

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?

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Originally Posted by fousto

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?

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Right, Massa has been discredited as well.

I really like the little fellow. Especially since he stood up to Alonso after their little on-track battle in 2007. I think Alonso beat Massa fair and square, but Massa gave him a piece of his mind. :D

[youtube]cMjknmNdvrM[/youtube]

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Originally Posted by fousto

It is kind of funny but anyone that can't beat Massa as a teammate is deemed a step slow!! uhmmmmmm could it be that Massa is pretty damn fast?

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Yes Massa is a quick driver - but then this is f1 after all and "slow" is measured in relative hundreths.

And in 2010 Massa is going to have the opportunity to show what he can do against Alonso. Nobody expects him to beat him but if he is consistently right alongside the Spaniard or shows a fair amount of outqualifying it will I think permanently shift views of the Brazilian and, the question will be put to rest.

If he does go well against Alonso he can expect petulance and spitefulness from his teammate which he has never had to deal with before.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Not sure why you started this debate.
As far as I'm concerned I've been complaining about Kimi since last season and I did criticize him for his unfair move in Spa too.

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I'll give you credit for that Ioan, you haven't liked Kimi much from the start. And in all fairness Massa was beating up on him for a while there.

I personally tend to think that Massa has proven he's a very good driver. I hope he comes back 100%, because if he does I think Alonso is going to be doing a lot of whining when Felipe beats him. Also I tend to think they need Massa for car devolopment, since even though some claim Fernando is the master at this, the Renault was trash and Alonso wasn't helping make it better.


For this upcoming season I'll remain a borderline tifosi, hoping Massa humbles Alonso. ;)

For Mr. (if i can call you that) ioan, I am a Ferrari fan since I first started watching F1. And the only ones I am bashing are those idiots can are always badmouthing Kimi even if he gave Ferrari 1 championship in 2 years with good cars, while Massa gave.... let me se... ZERO in 3 years with a winning car. A driver who has the record of fastest laps in one season, beating Mr.(?!?!) ioan idoal' previous record. So please excuse me if I start bashing them.

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I'll give you credit for that Ioan, you haven't liked Kimi much from the start. And in all fairness Massa was beating up on him for a while there.

I personally tend to think that Massa has proven he's a very good driver. I hope he comes back 100%, because if he does I think Alonso is going to be doing a lot of whining when Felipe beats him. Also I tend to think they need Massa for car devolopment, since even though some claim Fernando is the master at this, the Renault was trash and Alonso wasn't helping make it better.


For this upcoming season I'll remain a borderline tifosi, hoping Massa humbles Alonso. ;)

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Be fair to Alonso - nobody can make silk out of a sow's ear.

In short the Renault's problem was the advent of the one make control tyres. The switch from Michelin boutique and the different weight distribution caught out Renault in the same reaction was opposite to the positive action it had for Ferrari.

In 2008 Renault recovered and it seemed to have recovered significantly with the Alonso inspired win at the brilliant driver's circuit, Suzuka.

But then came the new regs and it really confused Renaullt still just managing to recover.

Blaming Alonso during these days of simulator testing is not fair - just look how Hamilton could do nothing with the Mclaren at the strat of 2009.

It is essential these days to have at least a capable car which a good driver can leverage at times using qualifying and strategy.

Further, this dreadful car in 2009 won POLE position in Hungary and finished THIRD in Singapore in addition to finishing well into the points on several other occasions.

That was Alonso not the car. It is also not accidental that he won two championships, especially the 2005 title where he demonstrated that the Schumacher era was over.

It was if you know the story as reported by Autosport during the following period that 2006 title win that led Montezemolo to finally decide not to re-sign Schumacher replace him with Raikkonen.

Todt disagreed, there was conflict and the rest is well known history now.

At least Montezemolo is consistent and out went Raikkonen and in comes Alonso, the long term goal of dear, soon top be former head of FOTA, Luca.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

Further, this dreadful car in 2009 won POLE position in Hungary and finished THIRD in Singapore in addition to finishing well into the points on several other occasions.

That was Alonso not the car.

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When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

How do the Ferrari fans see the competition between the 2 drivers now? When will the first public whining start? By Monaco?

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

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Erm, did you pay any attention to what you were watching, because you evidently missed the fact that Kimi just had a Force India to beat at Spa, due to a freak set of circumstances whereby all the front-running cars could not adapt to the unique demands of Spa.

Given the unexpected drop in previous front-runners form at Spa, the Ferrari F60, with it's KERS perfect for the uphill Eau Rouge blast, was the perfect car for Spa 2009.

Any other opinion is that of an asshole.

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Originally Posted by JRodrigues

For Mr. (if i can call you that) ioan, I am a Ferrari fan since I first started watching F1. And the only ones I am bashing are those idiots can are always badmouthing Kimi even if he gave Ferrari 1 championship in 2 years with good cars, while Massa gave.... let me se... ZERO in 3 years with a winning car. A driver who has the record of fastest laps in one season, beating Mr.(?!?!) ioan idoal' previous record. So please excuse me if I start bashing them.

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Don't know you but I have no idols, I don't need anyone too keep drooling over.

However if you, one day, decide to post something sensible I'll probably answer it, until then I doubt that you are even 1% a Ferrari fan.

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

How do the Ferrari fans see the competition between the 2 drivers now? When will the first public whining start? By Monaco?

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Look, Kimi drove well in Spa, once he passed the front runner outside the track, and I already mentioned that another driver got punished for similar moves a year ago, so I can't do anything else but consider that Kimi's move wasn't fair, all he had to do was to keep a Force India at bay which probably wasn't such a tough job with KERS at hand.
Also worth mentioning is that he looked like he was pushing for once, probably because he smelled the win, which makes me question even more his dedication during the last 2 seasons.

Kimi sure is a very talented and fast driver, but I doubt he's perfect, so criticism should be accepted with grace, IMO.

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

In short the Renault's problem was the advent of the one make control tyres.

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We might also say that the Renault's previous success is down to Michelin developing the suspensions and tires for them.
However let's go back to Ferrari and hope their new racer will be better.

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Originally Posted by henners88

You signature suggests you are a huge fan of MS and I have witnessed you defend him to the hilt old bean. Is he not a figure of respect or even an idol for you? Lets not start teasing each other though, saying I'm a bigger Ferrari fan than you nah nah nah nah.. :p

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I believe that someone can be a fan without idolizing anyone.
I'm not the kind of person who believes without questioning and that's why I technically can't have idols of any kind.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I admire that you have chosen to keep an opinion which reflects the same opinion in both circumstances. I feel that Kimi took an advantage on the grippy run off on the outside of the track, but this would have been something Kimi had discussed in his briefing with the team. Kimi used the same advantage in the 2008 GP, so he had prior knowledge of how to make it work. There is a loophole in the rules and because he didn't cut the chicane, there was no problem in the stewards eyes. Hamilton also obeyed the rules after his illegal advantage but was caught out on a technicality and difference of human opinion, so I agree that there needs to be transparancy. Hopefully we will see this from now on... :)

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Hopefully.

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

When Kimi won in Spa that was not him driving the wheels off a mediocre Ferrari (the latter part of 2009 was in general solid driving from Kimi). But when Freddie does the same, its the driver.

Opinions truly are like assholes.

How do the Ferrari fans see the competition between the 2 drivers now? When will the first public whining start? By Monaco?

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I think 2010 will prove that either Felipe has been underrated by many, or Fred has been overrated by many. Felipe outperformed Kimi quite a few times, and Kimi is no slouch. I expect to see Fred whining within 3-4 races. :)

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Originally Posted by airshifter

I think 2010 will prove that either Felipe has been underrated by many, or Fred has been overrated by many. Felipe outperformed Kimi quite a few times, and Kimi is no slouch. I expect to see Fred whining within 3-4 races. :)

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Hence, ferrari will compete the next season in perfect form, provided the car is quite up to meet the challenge. Either of them has good designation developing the car, they should have worked hardly while the season is off, just wait and see that this combination works out and mutual symbiosis taken effect.
I don't see Felipe is hard person to work with and Fernando is supposed to learn from failures in his former team. Don't make the very self same mistake...

I honestly think Ferrari will be up there challenging next year, possibly the team to beat.
I´m sure lessons have been learned this year and Ferrari will bounce back next year with Alonso leading the way.
All in all I feel next year will be a much closer battle at the front between 3 or even 4 teams.

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Originally Posted by ioan

I'm not the kind of person who believes without questioning and that's why I technically can't have idols of any kind.

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Why is it so difficult to admit that you idolize MS? Theres nothing wrong with that. On the contrary.

I think you have on several occasions proven to not accept the faults MS made even though everyone else saw those (wont go into those now). That qualifies to be idolizing in my books. There is absolutely nothing wrong about that but it makes any discussion with you practically impossible.

Ive always cheered for Finnish drivers and for the last 9 years its been mostly for Kimi. Now I dont know anymore. It will be difficult to force yourself seeing lap after lap with no overtaking when there are no Finns on the grid.

Nico is of course half Finnish, but unless he returns to drive under the Finnish flag... dunno. And Im afraid it´ll be a long time before another Finnish title contender comes along.

But hey, more time to other stuff on Sundays :)

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Originally Posted by Dzeidzei

Why is it so difficult to admit that you idolize MS?

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Because it's not true.
I'll go even as far as saying that I mention his name far less than any of his detractors around here. Does that mean you idolize him?! :laugh:

Get a grip man, everyone isn't like you.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think I came to the conclusion a long time ago that you are one of gods rare creations, and you rarely share an opinion with anyone else on here. Idolize is a strong word, but he is your favourite F1 driver, well that is my impression anyway. :)

This might be a technicality but you say you mention his name far less than any of his detractors. Does mentioning him in every single one of your posts through the context of your signature count towards this?? ;)

"Michael Schumacher the best ever F1 driver"

Only joshin :p :

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No your'e not, you are trolling.

You are certainly not adding to the discussion.

Go and start a Mclaren fans thread.

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Originally Posted by henners88

I think I came to the conclusion a long time ago that you are one of gods rare creations...

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Finally you saw the light! :p :

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Originally Posted by henners88

Idolize is a strong word, but he is your favourite F1 driver, well that is my impression anyway. :)

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And I never tried to hide this. :)

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Originally Posted by henners88

I'm glad to didn't mention the signature joke I made, and I'm glad you didn't take offence.. It wasn't intended.. :)

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Let's just say that I learned to stay well above a certain level. :p :

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Originally Posted by Saint Devote

In 2008 Renault recovered and it seemed to have recovered significantly with the Alonso inspired win at the brilliant driver's circuit, Suzuka.

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Erm, the 2008 Japanese GP was held at Fuji.