Hamilton Stripped of Win - Official

It's a good thing something like this didn't happen in NASCAR. Jesse, Al and Barack would be screaming, "It's racism!" :p

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Originally Posted by N. Jones

This thread could easily be closed if my question would or could be answered:

How far back should a car be after giving up a position gained by using a part of the ground that isn't considering the race track?

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Tough question to answer , Mr. Jones .
It must be deemed that the driver gains no advantage from the off-track move .
At different speeds this will always be different .
In this case , Hamilton has admitted that he had a tow in the slipstream , and the stewards perhaps saw this as less likely , had he stayed on track behind in the chicane .

It's got to be a judgement call in every case .

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

Ioan and Bagwan..are you guys willing to give your thoughts about Kimi's action at the start (1st corner)..see me earlier posts...and maybe explain me the difference between that action and lewis ??? Both went of the track...doing it themself..Not forced of (like been said for lewis)...and also kimi clearly gaining advantage...thx in advance !

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I have been discussing whether or not Lewis gained advantage , not whether the stewards are consistant in penalties .

It is normal and a matter of course to complain to the stewards about such matters , and since the teams have not issued protest about that move at te first corner , we must surmise that what occurred was also normal and a matter of course .

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Originally Posted by ioan

:up: Someone had to say it!

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I should be saying it to my pal , Mickey T , who dissed my opinion because it didn't sound credible beside Lauda's .
Lauda said that Lewis had no tow , and Lewis , himself said he did .

Who you gonna believe ? Me and Lewis , or old , mouldy Lauda ?

Wrong desicion. I would be happy for anyone to win the championship except hamilton because of the Alonso issue last season but the 25 sec penalty is ridiculous! evidence is shown that hamilton had no advantage! this is going to yet again fuel rumors of ferrari - FIA, Brothers in Arms. However i think that hamliton should not have said that raikkonen "pushed him" in the press conference because that for all to see, is untrue, RAIKKONEN HAD THE ****** RACING LINE AND WAS ALREADY HALFWAY THROUGH THE CORNER. I also think that hamilton needs to curb his attitude and composure asap to avoid stupid mistakes, bad track behaviour and comments if he is to become champ in any future years.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

I have been discussing whether or not Lewis gained advantage , not whether the stewards are consistant in penalties .

It is normal and a matter of course to complain to the stewards about such matters , and since the teams have not issued protest about that move at te first corner , we must surmise that what occurred was also normal and a matter of course .

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ever thought of goin into politics bagwan ? You would do great ! ;-)

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Originally Posted by Son of Gobber

also think that hamilton needs to curb his attitude and composure asap to avoid stupid mistakes, bad track behaviour and comments if he is to become champ in any future years.

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Hamilton is a real racer who takes every oportunity to pass cars or at least make an attempt...sometimes it works..sometimes it doesn't...That's racing...But that's why I like him so much...Because he goes for it at every occasion...I don't see why you call that bad track behaviour....or how many cases you can show me where he really pushed of any other cars during his F1 career so far ? deliberately that is....

Trulli Reckons Hamilton Deserved Penalty
9
09
2008

Toyota driver Jarno Trulli believes that the stewards were right to hand Lewis Hamilton a 25 second penalty at the end of the Belgian Grand Prix for gaining an illegal advantage after cutting the bus stop chicane.

The hot topic of F1 at the moment has been brought into the media spotlight as many reckon it was a bad choice to penalise the British driver, but Trulli reckons that other circumstances would have led him not to cut the corner or indeed encourage others to do the same.

“In my opinion Hamilton got an advantage by cutting the chicane,” Trulli told Gazzetta dello Sport. “Had he stayed on the road, he wouldn’t have had the speed to overtake the Ferrari.

“In the same way at Monza someone could cut the first chicane, catch a rival’s draft, and overtake him under braking at Roggia.

“When you attack on the outside, you do it at your own risk, because who’s on the inside has the right to do the corner. If there isn’t enough room, then you lift.

“Had there been a wall there, instead of the surfaced escape route, would Lewis have attacked anyway? Had there been gravel, he wouldn’t have had the chance to attack when rejoining the track because of dirty tyres.”

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Tough question to answer , Mr. Jones .
It must be deemed that the driver gains no advantage from the off-track move .
At different speeds this will always be different .
In this case , Hamilton has admitted that he had a tow in the slipstream , and the stewards perhaps saw this as less likely , had he stayed on track behind in the chicane .

It's got to be a judgement call in every case .

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I disagree.

Judgement is subjective isn't it.

Shouldn't race control have the final say?

Surely if race control confirm you are OK, then you are?

Oh and Jarno has an opinion too ! Is Jarno trulli Italian ? is Ferrari Italian? Lets all stick together.Just whereabouts was Jarno when this happened OR did he see it just the same as us all on film
Ralph says its wrong,Niki says its wrong,and they are not italian ,so therefore not biassed

Saying all Italians stick together is as daft as saying all Brits are McLaren kissin Max hatin Lewis lovers.

Now, the other way of looking at it is two current drivers say boooo cheat and two ex drivers say support the innocent

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Originally Posted by ioan

My opinion is that the stewards didn't act in the right way, and I can't judge it any more than this because I don't have the data. I refer you to my previous posts, starting with the very first page of this thread. You'll see that I never said that Hamilton was guilty and rightly punished!

So, what exactly should my opinion be if it was a Ferrari driver? :p :

You see, you are judging me without knowing the facts first! ;)

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Not at all — I was merely asking a question. However, I do take your point. :up:

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Originally Posted by TMorel

Saying all Italians stick together is as daft as saying all Brits are McLaren kissin Max hatin Lewis lovers.

Now, the other way of looking at it is two current drivers say boooo cheat and two ex drivers say support the innocent

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+1

I would be interested in understanding why he said this as a racing driver but he's entitled to his opinion as is NL, RS and Sterling Moss.

Massa echoes what Trulli allready said. Don't you think these professional now a bit better than all the conspiracy theorists here???

Massa:

Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings, when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained. If Lewis had taken the chicane correctly, he would never have been able to pass Kimi on the very short straight that follows it. That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay.

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Originally Posted by Knock-on

+1

I would be interested in understanding why he said this as a racing driver...

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He said that because he's a racing driver :p :

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Originally Posted by driveace

Oh and Jarno has an opinion too ! Is Jarno trulli Italian ? is Ferrari Italian? Lets all stick together.Just whereabouts was Jarno when this happened OR did he see it just the same as us all on film
Ralph says its wrong,Niki says its wrong,and they are not italian ,so therefore not biassed

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It's not only the Italians, it's us the Finns too. There was a poll in a popular Finnish tabloid and about 75% (11 000 answers) thought it was right to penalise Hamilton.

I don't know if you guys have heard the latest. According to Whitmarsh McLAren had asked the stewards TWICE if Lewis had passed Kimi correctly or not and they were told TWICE that yes, he had. Whitmarsh continues saying that if they had been told "no" they would have asked Lewis to let Kimi pass by. So, I don't know what to make of this. However, if that's true all those of you that accused Ferrari to have "links" with the FIA should apologize to Ferrari and to US (Ferrari fans). If true, of course.

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Originally Posted by driveace

Oh and Jarno has an opinion too ! Is Jarno trulli Italian ? is Ferrari Italian?

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:laugh:
I just knew someone will say something like this!
Hamilton fanatics are way to predictable, just like him! :rotflmao:

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I don't know if you guys have heard the latest. According to Whitmarsh McLAren had asked the stewards TWICE if Lewis had passed Kimi correctly or not and they were told TWICE that yes, he had. Whitmarsh continues saying that if they had been told "no" they would have asked Lewis to let Kimi pass by. So, I don't know what to make of this. However, if that's true all those of you that accused Ferrari to have "links" with the FIA should apologize to Ferrari and to US (Ferrari fans). If true, of course.

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I'm willing to give Hamilton the benefit of doubt, but no way I would do the same with any of the McLaren bosses.
I saw last year that they will go very very low and deep trying to influence the public opinion by using false information. :down:

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I don't know if you guys have heard the latest. According to Whitmarsh McLAren had asked the stewards TWICE if Lewis had passed Kimi correctly or not and they were told TWICE that yes, he had. Whitmarsh continues saying that if they had been told "no" they would have asked Lewis to let Kimi pass by. So, I don't know what to make of this. However, if that's true all those of you that accused Ferrari to have "links" with the FIA should apologize to Ferrari and to US (Ferrari fans). If true, of course.

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The actual quote, as your paraphrase is very misleading.

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Martin Whitmarsh added: "From the pit wall, we then asked Race Control to confirm that they were comfortable that Lewis had allowed Kimi to repass, and they confirmed twice that they believed that the position had been given back in a manner that was 'okay'.

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

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Originally Posted by COD

Massa echoes what Trulli allready said. Don't you think these professional now a bit better than all the conspiracy theorists here???

Massa:

Incidents like this have often been discussed in the official driver briefings, when it has been made absolutely clear that anyone cutting a chicane has to fully restore the position and also any other eventual advantage gained. If Lewis had taken the chicane correctly, he would never have been able to pass Kimi on the very short straight that follows it. That was my immediate opinion after seeing the replay.

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With trulli it is a wildcard trying to link what he says to any Ferrari conspiracy, but looking at Massa he gets a win and cuts the championship lead to 2 points - as if he's not going to biased, in much the same way he was arguing that he should not have been penalised last race. I'd wait to hear the appeal (if we have one) too cute by half this whole incident and i would honestly love to see whether the same penalty had applied if the roles were reversed and Hamilton was overtaken by Kimi in the same manner than lewis crashed out

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Originally Posted by yodasarmpit

"If Race Control had instead expressed any concern regarding Lewis’s actions at that time, we would have instructed Lewis to allow Kimi to repass for a second time."

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Which is why there should've been no time penalty issued after the flag dropped.

Its not about Hamiton's guilt or innocence its the penalty that smells. In-Race penalties are only appropriate when there is an actual race underway.

:crazy:

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Originally Posted by yodasarmpit

The actual quote, as your paraphrase is very misleading.

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If you find my sentence misleading go ahead but I can assure you it was NOT done on purpose. I am pretty honest when I say or write something. So, take it easy, buddy.

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Originally Posted by driveace

Ralph says its wrong

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If Ralf says the call was wrong, then it was probably right - we all remember how good Ralf's eyesight is!!!! :)

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Originally Posted by Whyzars

In-Race penalties are only appropriate when there is an actual race underway.

:crazy:

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Not saying that I agree with the LH situation, but in general if you limit penalties to being carried out during a race, then you're either going to have a last lap free-for-all (since you couldn't react to impose a penalty) or a penalty will have to carry over to the next race. In this case that would mean the stewards would have LH do a drive-thru during the first laps of the next race. That wouldn't go over too well, either.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

Tough question to answer , Mr. Jones .
It must be deemed that the driver gains no advantage from the off-track move .
At different speeds this will always be different .
In this case , Hamilton has admitted that he had a tow in the slipstream , and the stewards perhaps saw this as less likely , had he stayed on track behind in the chicane .

It's got to be a judgement call in every case .

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Yeah, plus Jarno made a good point - since he cut the chicane and the runoff was asphalt he was able to keep his speed, drop back and attack again.

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Originally Posted by ioan

:laugh:
I just knew someone will say something like this!
Hamilton fanatics are way to predictable, just like him! :rotflmao:

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LOL

The irony!

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Originally Posted by driveace

Oh and Jarno has an opinion too ! Is Jarno trulli Italian ? is Ferrari Italian? Lets all stick together.Just whereabouts was Jarno when this happened OR did he see it just the same as us all on film
Ralph says its wrong,Niki says its wrong,and they are not italian ,so therefore not biassed

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Trulli himself might not be but the paper that he told is Italian:

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Originally Posted by HenryM

Trulli told Gazzetta dello Sport.

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Italian press like the English press is biased. British press in favour of Hamilton, and the Italian press in favour of Ferrari. It's a reasonable slant for them to take since they're in the business of selling newspapers.

It's probably impossible to find any unbiased or neutral reports, because virtually everyone has an agenda (and for newspapers, it's selling ad space).

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Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

LOL

The irony!

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probably your right. ;)

It seems that Charlie Whiting confirmed, possibly twice, that the way LH dropped back behind Kimi was OK. However, the race stewards took a diiferent view. Is there a case for teams checking with both the race director and the race stewards? Particularly as it appears that the stewards can override the race director's decision.

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Originally Posted by hmmm - donuts

It seems that Charlie Whiting confirmed, possibly twice, that the way LH dropped back behind Kimi was OK. However, the race stewards took a diiferent view. Is there a case for teams checking with both the race director and the race stewards? Particularly as it appears that the stewards can override the race director's decision.

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I think it's another example of FIA management - never let your left hand know what the right hand is doing (wait...this is the wrong forum...never mind) :)

I just finished watching the second half of the race again and I realized that if we're all playing the "IF" game, here's one for you - IF LH hadn't spun on lap 1 or 2, we wouldn't even have this thread right now...

But, since we do have this thread, I found it interesting that on the ITV feed, Mark Blundell was uncertain as to whether Lewis had gained an advantage at the famous chicane. If ITV has a doubt about Lewis, then the doubt MUST be taken seriously.

Up to now we have:
1. lots of raging McLaren and Hamilton fans complaining about the penalty.
2. a few fans that say it was right
3. a few that chose to sit on the fence (me included) as we don't have the relevant data needed to judge the situation.
4. Niki Lauda against the ruling.
5. Trulli and Massa who consider that the penalty was deserved, and I had the chance to hear Wurz during the live coverage saying that a drive through should be in the cards and that given that it was late it will probably be a 25 seconds penalty.

Interesting situation.

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Originally Posted by wmcot

I just finished watching the second half of the race again and I realized that if we're all playing the "IF" game, here's one for you - IF LH hadn't spun on lap 1 or 2, we wouldn't even have this thread right now...

But, since we do have this thread, I found it interesting that on the ITV feed, Mark Blundell was uncertain as to whether Lewis had gained an advantage at the famous chicane. If ITV has a doubt about Lewis, then the doubt MUST be taken seriously.

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There are always IF's

IF McLaren hadn't spoken with Race Control TWICE, we would be saying that IF they were unsure, they should have checked with Race Control to find out.

Of course, IF they had of checked twice, they SHOULD have rung up ITV to make sure ;)

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Originally Posted by ioan

Up to now we have:
1. lots of raging McLaren and Hamilton fans complaining about the penalty.

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who says these are all McL and/or Hamilton fans ?

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Originally Posted by ioan

Up to now we have:
a few that chose to sit on the fence (me included) as we don't have the relevant data needed to judge the situation.

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I don't agree there...u sitting on the fence that is..as U wanted a clear YES or NO from me if Massa was the deserved winner..right ? as long as you are not sure about the penalty yourself you can not demand from other to have a clear opinion either !

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Originally Posted by ioan

Up to now we have:
and I had the chance to hear Wurz during the live coverage saying that a drive through should be in the cards and that given that it was late it will probably be a 25 seconds penalty.

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what channel was that ?

The real problem is that the rules seem ambiguous, hence the lengthly arguments on here. Did he/didn't he gain an advantage? What is an advantage?
The rules should be black & white, and everybody knows what they are. If the Race Director thinks the info he's giving is correct yet later isn't - then there are issues.
Personally they should have given him a slap on the wrists with a fine, then sort it out starting next season so everybody knows were they stand.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

I don't agree there...u sitting on the fence that is..as U wanted a clear YES or NO from me if Massa was the deserved winner..right ? as long as you are not sure about the penalty yourself you can not demand from other to have a clear opinion either !

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That's because you were giving contradictory opinions based on the drivers involved, and I wanted to see how objective you can be. Not getting any objective (without BUT's and IF's) answers from you up to know I can say you are a biased Hamilton supporter.

And no, I'm not sure about the penalty, and even if I was sure that he was guilty I think that I would have preferred a 10 places grid demotion in Monza instead of taking away a race win he earned on track after all.

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Originally Posted by Tonieke

what channel was that ?

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ORF1

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Originally Posted by Daniel

The whole thing is that I agree that Lewis DID get an advantage out of what he did......

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So did Massa, he left the pits into the path of Sutil, if he'd waited he would have lost 2 seconds. But he didn't gain a sporting advantage as it didn't change the results. Same as Hamilton, as Kimi went off anyway.

I think many of us was i directly after the race thinking that the decision stewards made was wrong, but when we have been looking on the pictures and video afterwards we have changes our mind.. however i did it..