the thing with duval is that he will most likely be infront of the ford scared kids adn not infront of the citroens.
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the thing with duval is that he will most likely be infront of the ford scared kids adn not infront of the citroens.
We have a historical win and all you can do is mock each others? Figures...
To be fair, the 3 drivers you mention here are all legends of the sport but Vatanen and Alens best years were past in 92Quote:
Originally Posted by kleisj
a historical win which half people consider it to be against inferior competition thus its not historical and the other half considers it that was ilegal because Loeb was speeding, pushed back on the road his hair were too long ects....and there is me who mocks everyone with my sick dog toilet humour...
for every win of every driver in every event of all years you can find reasons diminishing it....simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by cut the b.s.
LOEB IS THE BEST DRIVER OF ALL TIMES AND BY FAR (this win persuaded even myself)....all the sceptics and the people who like the stone age of rallying than the modern era will just extinct in a few years.
i bet if sordo doesn't beat akinson in germany (tarmac) some heads are going roll...
you believe thats a possibility ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Torsen
the only problem is that is sordo is not allowed to beat Loeb, but atkinson is getting close... but that is starting to say that atkinson is going to beat loeb, which is not believeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Correct on both points, but to be honest I have realised for some time now that Loeb is a bit special, the point I made in the earlier post was in reference to how people always think it was better back in the day...Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Auriol and Loeb can both be very proud of their Finland victories, they both beat decent competition to do it
ps. I am alone in thinking maybe the Focus has a very slight edge on the C4 now? Maybe Marcus should have given it another year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buzz Lightyear
Germany will be interesting, Sordo has the pace to win there, I think if Loeb has any problem and Sordo and Duval get a clear run Sordo will get his chance to shine, its incredible to think Seb is trying for his 7th victory in a row there, for this reason and no other I think a cow will 'moo' at him this year and cause him to spin off the stage! Surely its not possible to win a WRC event 7 years in a row? He has already done it in 2 different cars, for 2 different teams ;-)
cut the bs, cut the bs... two diff teams, lol ;)
AHAH get real ... it won't be true even if he wins another 5 WRC titles trust me ... here in Italy if I say "Loeb" half of the people reply "... who ?!" and the other half "meh, he's a bot but 0 emotions...", if I say "Colin McRae" they reply "oh, he was AMAZING ! My idol !", of course the videogame serie may also have something related to this, we have to wait until somebody publish a "Loeb Rally" videogame ... but ops ... it will never happen because he's not popular at all, that's it :pQuote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
so the greateness of a man depends on how popular he is....hmmmm nice logic
This victory has sealed Loeb's greatness I think, fantastic effort and glad that it wasn't a walk in the park :)
However I can't help but feel that he only won because Marcus wasn't competing ;)
Title number 5 coming right up!
Loeb did really well, but I must admit it's frustrating.
Everyone else seems to struggle and Seb makes it look easy.
That's when you know you have that "it" factor.
The possibility of anyone winning the title besides Seb is nil. Live with that fact!
I know I will until next season.
I think you're forgetting that Citroën are using WRC very much as a marketing tool, so they hire talented drivers from countries where they sell cars. Since they don't sell any cars in Australia there is 0% chance that Atkinson will ever drive for the Citroën works team. Had he been as good as Loeb - which he clearly isn't - then maybe, but otherwise not a chance.Quote:
Originally Posted by theugsquirrel
It's just to show you that now WRC is unfortunately a small little thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Almost nobody is following it anymore. It's more circuit racing, with almost nobody racing. Like F1 with 8-10 cars only.
Easier to win now compared to the past.
And different, rallies were longer, cars weren't like on trails, there were more drivers and cars, better competition. etc. yes Loeb is the winner of this 'era' and his fans and him are proud, but the environment is poor.
Good point. Having just seen the pathetic excuse of an F1 driver that Kovalainen is, winning his first race in the must lucky way, you never know what might happen in Germany. Maybe you're right - maybe it doesn't matter what Loeb does in Germany, maybe it's just his time to have a problem on a rally he has won 6 times in a row. But mark my words, Hirvonen will also have at least one DNF before this season is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by cut the b.s.
well, a great win by Loeb and the fact that Mikko couldn't even beat Loeb on his homeground might affect his confidence for the rest of the year. Not taking anything away from Loeb, but still I don't appreciate the opponents as much as if Grönholm would have been there.
And if only Latvala would get his head straight....
Also a good drive by Atkinson and further ridiculing Petters complaints about the car. And a very nice drive by Rantanen in his first ever WRC event. Hope he gets more chances in other events as well.
And nice that Hänninen got the win he needed. i hope the two finns will challenge Aigner for the PWRC title for real
I dont know what it is about Loeb, an absoloutely amazingly talented driver but in the English speaking rally world and Nordic countries he does not seem to be as popular a figure as Marcus, Colin, Tommi, Petter,Galli, and so on.
Winning Finland was clearly very important for Seb, and well done to him. As for Mikko he tried.......... shame Marcus wasn't there, and also shame that Ouninpohja was not run in its proper way and proper length.
ok go back to the stone age then.....maybe in few years you will discover fire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Helstar
Why was more difficult to win in the old days ???
Loeb gave 100% to win in Finland and the ancient holy dinosaurs of rallying also gave 100% to win their battles as well...cannot see why was easier to win now from then? yes rallies were 100000 milles longer but also the final differences were count in years not seconds. As for the better competition hardly in the old days we had more than 2 championship contenders....
Its called evolution
oh there is going to be Loeb haters.... as much as I cheer for Jari & Chris I am just amazed by Loeb's consistent speed...
just because in your country people don't know who loeb is doesn't mean it takes ANYTHING away from him... thanks for letting us know about italian rally ignorance... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Helstar
Yepp, both can be proud but (always a mais!) having watched, or follwed both evnts I remeber "our gut feelings'.Quote:
Originally Posted by cut the b.s.
Here I think you'll agree we all feel "If nothing goes badly wrong, Seb will win"
But back then I remember we were all surprised as hell, and some like me who really like Auriols character, were also delighted.
Maybe another way to think of the difference is Seb beat 2 Finns (realistically two were a real threat), Didi beat a dozen, and that's a bigger deal.
Truth is the Lancia was food but it really wasn't in the same last per cent as the Japonaise cars.
But that's just little crumbs of details, great results for both.
Because in the old days (stone age as you say) you would have 7-10 drivers all capable of winning when they had the chance. Ok with different machinery but all were heavy names. Some of them were at the end of their career some of them at the start. But it was different. When Auriol got the win Juha was second. Would you compare him with Hirvonen??Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Take any 3 years you want from the stone age and tell me how many different winners you would have in 3 championships and how many in the last 3....?
And something else in the stone age the rallies were much more spectacular...
In the modern days you miss this excitement.
By numbers Loeb is the greatest of all times. He is a driving genius compared to the rest. Is he? For sure is great. No doubt about that. But he had too much positive parameters helping him up to now to his WRC career. A team and a car which was best suited to him. He never changed team and never experienced any serious difficulties with his car. I have nothing against him on the contrary I truly admire him for his achievements. But he is in an era where the competition is much more inferior and much more less. Simple as that.
With Gronholm for sure we watched some great battles, but it was just between them two...!
In the stone age you didn't know the top 3 spots before the beginning of the rally. And with absence of super rally someone made a mistake he was out of the event.
For you is evolution for me is just not interesting as it was.
Ask people what they would prefer to watch , the 2006 season on DVD or the 2001 or 1999, or 1995 season?
Historical win for a staight close duel.
Bravo Seb & Mikko !
Something very special to win there, on the holy land of rallying in front of so many die hard fans.
3 non Nordics only have won this Rally, all being Latins.
Great result for Chris and Stéphane and good perfomance for Dani and Marc. Citroën unexpectedly pockets a nice amount of points over Ford.
Not to forget the steady pace of Rantanen-Lonegren.
Next step : RAC 2008 !
The rally was fun, weather was mostly pleasant, too bad Latvala went out, but such is life.
WRC needs more drivers who don't brake halfway down a straight, three or four isn't enough, especially if two of them drive off the road.
Great drive from Loeb, he's the man. Mikko too, just not as big a man. :)
I don't think Dudu has a chance with Seb , except if he experiences any bad luck or mistake. Dudu is not a WRC regular any more and thus he will not be able or push as much as he would want or have the form to push as much as he would want. I think he will be even behind Sordo who usually goes well on tarmac surfaces.Quote:
Originally Posted by HaCo
Go here:Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/...splay.php?f=94
And stay there.
Yes evolution. But ever since the subset of GpA which allows "World Rally Cars" to be built under much MUCH greater freedom, the cars, from shell to suspension strength, suspension TRAVEL!!! to gearboxes reliability---directly tied to REMOVING from the DRIVER the job of selecting gears---, to engine and especially turbocharger lifespan, the CARS are HUGELY, BIG GIANT STEPS improved over the early 90s Group A cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
They are essentially purpose built competition cars in EVERY detail now, then they were BASED ON production body shells and with the limitations that comes with that.
Suspension was max about 200mm travel... now at least 275, maybe 300mm
suspension had to be attached to the body within +-15mm. No funny fenders if they weren't made in series for 5000 road cars,
I want to ask when people have such obvious contempt for the achievements of people who they may have never seen, and it goes without saying, doing things that the complainer has never been close to doing:
Have you EVER seen the early 90s ccars driven by WRC drivers?
Ever [b][i]touched any parts, spent an hour going through the Homologation papers seeing what the parts that make up the car are like?
WAAAAAAAAaaaay back then the stuff was "pretty damn good" and crazy expensive.........Today the CARS are near perfect (hence the less than 2.5% difference in the speed between the amazing Loeb and the depressed, seemingly washed up hang dog Petter Solhberg only 2.5%) and to use the words of SEVERAL men who, unlike you, actually have driven both ;
"The cars are almost perfect--they just about drive themselves now..."
Sainz, McRae, Mäkinen all have said this about the modern World Rally Cars.
And they might possibly know just a bit more than a mere nameless fan.
Another factor is the current regs allows such few cars to qualify, and are so specialised and with the "can't homologate any new stuff" very often that
virtually nobody but 6 guys have top works spec, way beack when TOP works spec ---was NOT THAT FAR AHEAD of what LOTS MORE PEOPLE could scrape together.
And as for Championship, that is SEASON LONG Championship, yeah that's one thing but who cares?
On individual events there were lots of people fighting for top 25 places in cars MUCH NEARER in terms of speed THE CAR WAS CAPABLE OF.
Thus it was harder then beating 12-15-20 near equal cars than just beating 2.
Rally Finland crashes...
http://nettitv.mtv3.fi/maksuttomat/i...?139413#139413
Don't tell me where to go!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
I was just refering to how things can change even though most take certain results for granted.
well Loeb actually won rallies and titles when Solberg, Burns, sainz, makinen, Colin, Martin, Auriol and others were still in the game....Quote:
Originally Posted by kleisj
as for the car and team i partially agree....Gronholm also had peugeot bending over for him and he did nothing in the 307 a car which was basically build around him since he was the only consistent driver in the team by the time. I think the result wouldn't be any different in Loeb was in Ford...
As for the competition capable of winning an event were 2-3 drivers max on normal rounds and then they were the tarmac experts (the fact that you had 5-7 holy ancient dinosaurs competing doesn;t mean they could also win)...same as today where you have also 3 drivers capable and on tarmac you have sordo as well....the only thing that i miss from wrc is a strong 3rd factory team nothing more.
Unfortunately only in Finnish (again):
http://www.hs.fi/urheilu/artikkeli/L.../1135238319501
I let my compatriots to translate. We might hear more of this...
I don't say that the rallymen of the stone age were worse than today or the opposite i just say that Loeb is something special and the greatest of them all or at least as great as the legends of the sport....and i really cannot see why there is such a big need to diminish his achievements....Quote:
Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
Rallying of the past-now and forever will be about driver skill.....no matter how good erfect and strong the car is.....put an ape in a top track car and he will be a top contender put an ape in a top rally car and he will be ridiculed (there are many examples of that)...thats why in rallying is far easier to conclude in the best of all times.
Just had a chance to look at the results - well done to Guy Wilks in an N3 Honda, 18th overall and beat all the JWRC regulars. I hope he gets his chance in a WRC car. I admit that I did not rate him a few years ago but now he is proving me wrong. I wonder where he would be if he had Matt Wilson's chances?
Why? Because the old rally cars were a lot more demanding, that's why.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
If WRC continues this way, your "evolution" may end up with cars that don't require drivers at all.
yes the modern WRC car is SO much easier to drive... tell that to Gigi, PG, and everyone else who crashed out while driving a TON slower than the top two drivers... its a car that is vastly superior to the slow side ways rear wheel drive cars of old...Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker
being skillful in a slow and sideways manner doesn't impress anyone... stage times do impress me... and Loeb is owning...
i got an idea... lets design a car that is so complicated to drive it requires a driver to play a chess game while turning the wheel! that way we'll really know who is the best driver... :rolleyes:
I read about the 2000 eur speeding fine Loeb got today from the rally HQ notice board but didn't think there was anything more to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonkka
Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
NOT if you cannot understand how it so so much easier to win these events now then you have a serious problem!!!!!
Events in 2000's 17-25 stages!!! Easy cars to drive (just about drive themselves)
Events in 80's and 90's anywhere between 35-55 stages 5 days and nights
no power steering and driver aids etc etc etc!!!!!!1
Get a grip man.....