How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
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How can one talk a militant fanatic into changing his mind if one can't even talk a liberal minded fluffy rounded Finn into recognising the right of a certain democratic state to exist?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eki
Your statement sums up exactly what I have been trying to say, which is: "anyone who dares to criticise Israel in any shape or form is for all intents and purposes denying Israel's right to exist and therfore by association anti-semetic!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I'm not denying the right of Israel to exist, it does and it will, however I would like to see some justice for the Palestinians as well.
[quote="Eki"] You just don't sneak into another sovereign country and kidnap civilians there.quote]
A better example of this is the kidnapping from Rome of Mordechai Vanunu in the 1980's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu
True. That was not even morally right or justified like the kidnapping of Eichmann.Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
It's not me you have to convince. For me it's all the same, I just try to look at it from the Palestinian point of view while you and Rani are looking at it from the Israeli view point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
Camelopard, you cannot understand the full meaning of my post if you are not aware of the context, which is our verbal fencing that has been going on for years. Right, Eki? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
Eki repeatedly said that in his view Israel needs to just disappear from the political map the way East Germany once did. Eki, correct me if I am wrong.
I have no stakes in the Mid-Eastern conflicts. I have not a drop of Jewish blood in my vanes and have always perfectly got along with all Muslims I knew. I am much more pro-peace than I am pro-Israeli. The real difference between me and Eki boils down to the fact that I recognise the ligitimate right of Palestinians to have their state. Eki, on the opposite, thinks that Israel may as well cease existing. He also often sides with Ahmadinejad, who insists that Israel has no place on the map.
Again, the question is, if I wasted a couple years (including my office time ;) ) try to convince a liberal European, do I stand any chance to convince an Islamic fanatic, who has already started fancying nice chicks in paradise where he expects to get upon exploding himself together with a coupe dozens infidels?
OK, I did not realise this and that makes me understand some of your postings in the Iran thread, although you must agree that it makes it very difficult for a casual observer to see this if they haven't been around along time. My apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz
I spend a lot of time reading travelogues and came across this one when I did a search on Tajikistan.
http://www.travelblog.org/Bloggers/Carrinos/
I've been readfing about their travels from Chicago through the South Pacific, South East Asia, China and so on.
To say I was suprised when I got to this page is an understatement.
http://www.travelblog.org/Middle-Eas...log-58106.html
I hadn't read the title as I had just pressed next from their previous journal. I fully expected the usual stuff about Israel and how hard done by they had been and was totally amazed to see at the bottom of the journal comments like this:
"We saw the mosque where in 1994 Baruch Goldstein opened fire on Muslims prayer, killing 30 and wounding hundreds. In the demonstrations that followed, the Israeli army killed 12 more, then shut down the mosque for nine months, and gave part of it over for a synagogue."
So I did a google on him and came up with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Goldstein
A small quote from this site:
"The gravesite has become a pilgrimage site for those with extreme right-wing political views; a plaque near the grave reads 'To the holy Baruch Goldstein, who gave his life for the Jewish people, the Torah and the nation of Israel.' "
"Between the killings and 2000, an estimated 10,000 people have visited the grave"
Back to the original travelogue and another interesting comment:
"After checking out of our hostel, we headed to Hebron in the Palestinian Authority with Abu Hassan , a tour guide who has spent his life under Israeli occupation. It remains amazing to us that a people who've seen the effects of oppression don't see the parallels with their treatment of the Palestinians. Simply driving to Hebron was an eye-opening experience. Don't let the media tell you that Ohlmut is getting rid of the settlements - all along the way, we saw new buildings going up, along with the seperation wall that makes it impossible for a Palestinian state to truly exist. Of course, when it's done, the Israelis will offer the Palestinians statehood, and when they refuse, they'll be blamed for being unreasonable." (my underlining).
Also note the photo with the caption: "Your Tax Dollars at Work".
Nevermind. Sometimes these forums are a real jungle. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelopard
True. I'm positive that if all Jews of foreign heritage left Israel, gave back the occupied territories to the neighboring countries and renamed the whole place Palestine, even Ahmadinejad would be happy without any bloodshed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz