What Happens Next?

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Originally Posted by heelntoe

Mark, I've always read and appreciated your posts and I normally don't get wound up until a wacky poster like that guy Cache a while back or Sanguine now (I think they're the same guy by the way)

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I think you're missing one in there. If you noticed when Cache went away RGM Fan came along, and now RGM is gone and Sanguine is here...

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

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Originally Posted by LTalbot

So it appears like there are really two camps. Those like me, who are convinced a merger of some sorts is needed to lead us all to the Open Wheel Promised Land (good one Chaparral66), and those who say damn the IRL and Tony George and move on with the CCWS. I am no insider, just a fan who spends his vacations at Champ Car and F1 races. I also attend the local IRL races in Sonoma although was never a supporter of the original IRL concept of all American drivers on all oval tracks.

I wanted CART to succeed after the split, but really they lost the battle when the big teams moved to the IRL. When KK and company resurrected the series and rebadged it Champ Car I was delighted, because Champ Car represented what I wanted the series to be as the IRL still had only ovals. It also seemed like KK and TG could communicate without the hyperbole and anger that still separates many fans from agreeing on anything. My hope was together they could find common ground to a merger. Of coure this hope has never come to fruition and the recent comments in the Netherlands by the Champ Car series owners sound like they have no intention of discussing a merger or even running the Indy 500. While Indy is not the race it used to be, to ignore it and believe they can really be sucessful in the US without it is just silly. Open Wheel needs the Indy 500, because it's the only race that most Americans can identify with or even remember.

Like it or not, this is fact. A merger is a must, because if there is no merger, only the IRL will survive, and if Newman/Haas/Lanigan leave Champ Car the series WILL die. In this fans opinion NHL is really all that separates the series from being a bunch of wealthy weekend hobbiests.

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Mr. Talbot, join the club. You are not the only one thinking that. AT some point, Tony has to be dealt with because he has outspent and out lasted some pretty tough people, but in the end, CCWS is going to either fold, or sell to TG. If new owners come along, then they will have to do a LOT better job to make this series fly at this point. I see Europe as a salvation ONLY if the Amigos spend the money to make every event in North America work, and get enough Euromoney to make it happen. THAT my friends is such a long shot.....because I don't see the Amigo's doing anything over here but ticking people off.....

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Originally Posted by FlatChatRacer

What Happens Next?

Well, I watched Assen and really enjoyed it. The crowd looked good and even though there was little passing, it was a tactical race much like modern Formula One. However, I can't help thinking that this is not the long term answer for Champ Car.

CCWS may well decide to have more non-Nafta races, which pay the bills and permit profitability. However, this means abandoning any hope of being a force in American Open Wheel and capturing NAFTA based sponsorship.

Now, a global model may work, if they plan carefully and target sponsors who want a global presence and can't afford Formula One. However, to capture this new money, they still have to be more professional and prove to potential sponsors that they are providing value for money. In effect, they would be marketing themselves as Formula One "Lite". If that's the way the CCWS leaders want to go then fine, but as an ardent F1 lover, I will take the real thing every time.

I fell in love with CART/Champ Car because of the multi discipline racing. Road Course, Street Course, Superspeedway and Bullring Oval. I was intrigued by the close racing and personalities. Truthfully, in any given race over 50% of all starters had a genuine chance of winning, because of the nature of the rules, cars and circuits. Finally, it was professionally run.

I support CCWS, but the leaders make it hard for you to have any confidence in what they are doing and thus the future of the sport.

I have never worked in the motorsport industry, so I really can't comment on how difficult it must be to manage and run a racing series. However, I work in Investment Banking and have for the past 14 years. I am judged on results and delivery. If I didn't deliver, then I would be fired. I manage complex projects and deal with clients every day where millions of dollars are involved. I have to make plans and decisions and think carefully about the right way forward.

Forgive me, but surely the CCWS leaders must make plans and have targets as well? Is it me, or does it appear to anyone else like the leaders are just winging it?

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Winging it on half a folded wing, spinning hopelessly earthbound like mortally wounded waterfoul. Brilliant in appearance but lifeless in reality.

You are right on the money Mark. Case in Point, most every Champ Car fan said the IRL would fail at Belle Isle, and that there was just no interest in the facility. Look what a little smart marketing does for you. Granted I only saw the ALMS and IRL races on TV, but the place was packed, and absolutly gorgeous from the air. The racing was also anything but a parade.

Talbot, I didn't see the race, so I won't comment, but the racing there was always tight, but for Champ Car fans to dumpon the place was funny. It is a street race, and if people addressed what was wrong with the circuit for facilities and access, it would succeed. Penske doesn't do this stuff to lose his money or his rep.

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Originally Posted by David St. Hubbins

I give up. Who? You?

I'd like to know what the insiders (of which you claim to be-while it's possible, of course, but anyone can claim that on a message board...let's say I give you a 50/50 chance of being what you say) are doing to make this situation go forward.

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As David St. Hubbins himself once said: "It's such a fine line between stupid and clever." and therein lies the problem of finding the right leader. Oh, and I am not for second suggesting this person is me... LOL! I am only a racing dentist after all.

While I haven't been busy cleaning teeth I've gotten the opportunity to know or at least meet almost every CART, Champ Car and IRL leader over the years and I don't envy anyone who takes on a challenge like that.

On that subject, I think that the mean bashing that poor guys like Steve Johnson have received here is just awful given the reality of the no-win circumstances people like him face. How would you like working under four bosses who all think they are smarter than anyone born in the past seven decades? What would in be like to be blamed personally for every disaster large and small on forums like this even though you are probably not the problem. Mind you, my insight into this all could be hypothetical since chances are 50/50 that I am just another poser in a sport currently filled with them!

In hindsight, I think Andrew Craig did a decent job against a tide of negative factors ... he was worldly, he was smart and he made bold moves (Hawaii Super Prix excepted). I thought of him over the past weekend since it was at Detroit in June of 2000 that he was given the boot by the CART board and the death spiral began. One thing I liked about Andrew was that he had the usually had the sense to consider both sides of an issue before acting (again, Hawaii Super Prix excepted). He also came from a successful background in the greater world of international sports marketing and he understood that a sport must create commercial value not just harvest it. Was he perfect? No. Are you? Regardless, I don't want this to fall into a debate about the merits of Andrew personally (there are probably several flaming threads the subject already) but someone with his background (he had motorsports experience as well) fits the bill in my book -- but only in a unified series.

The big picture issue I see is that the IRL was created to benefit American oval track promoters (TG and IMS in particular) and now that reality has taken hold, TG has had to change his tune to stay in the game--but he is still promoter-centric in his thinking. Champ Car is still effectively run for the benefit of its equity holding entrants but the Amigos have, by necessity also become promoters... (like many of the CART owners were). Given how much both sides collectively waste in capital -- both financial and human -- each year, it strikes me that there has to be common ground in this somewhere. A third way, if you will, of looking at the overall business must be found that takes care of everyone in the sports financial ecosystem if it is ever to prosper again.

One last point about insiders: The committed customer is the ultimate insider. They hold the real power in my view -- especially if they are positive and energetic. The rush to reach the casual fan always strikes me as odd if a sport fails to build something worthy of the new fans staying interested or inspiring existing avid fans to engage in the best marketing there is: good old fashioned word of mouth (or click of a mouse).

I can't help but think a positive "what happens next" could change everything if it was about racing, personalities and something fresh -- not fear, failure and putrid ego-driven politics.

So, what happens next?

I'm just a fan.

:imubash:

:wave:

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

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I agree, many think RP is the devil incarnate and as much responsible for the split, if not moreso than TG himsef. I've had my just criticism of RP in the past but he obviously knows how to read the industry.
RP is the only individual I can even come close to that satisfies all of what I would consider essential criteria for leading a merged series. He has an exceptional track record as a businessman in several aspects of the Automotive industry. Manufacture, sales, service, rental. He has an unquestionable track record as a team owner and evaluater of racing talent in almost every premier racing series he's ever touched. He owns one of the most successful and broad reaching racing empires in racing history. He built, owned, managed and promoted a very successful portfolio of racing venues and the events held there under his stewardship. He was also an owner of CART at it's most successful period ever.
Many people have said, when the music stops, Roger Penske always has a chair. Why is that? Is there ANYONE that knows racing better than Roger? RP has a crystal ball the size of Australia, and he knows how to read it. Find a more respected figure in the automotive industry. All the bile and hatred is quite honestly childish jealousy. Honda and Cosworth could yank their engines and $ tomorrow and I would bet RP could find three manufacturers WITH money for real Advertising in time for a series tomorrow IF it was for a merged series he was in charge of.

Park the damn egos, Give KK, TG equal SERIES ownership, on condition they both stay the hell out of the racing operation and hand RP autonomy to run the series. KK can continue owning the rights to the various racing venues owned by CCWS, TG can run Indy how ever he wants, but RP calls the shots on the series. He appoints the racing committee, the technical comittee that designs the regs, the marketing, everything. If a track owner doesn't promote their race, it's gone, just as it should be, I don't care who owns it. The successful venues will survive, just as they have throughout this mess. Maybe some former venues would re-surface, maybe their history is written and should stay that way. But It's going to take someone with RP's knowledge, contacts and track record to pull it off. I don't know if even Bernie would pull it off, even if he wanted to.

RP destroyed CART.

among other things ,

I think TG should let him control the IRL, oh wait, he already does! :D

You would think the IRL would be more successful by now. :p :