FIA sends spy case to Court of Appeal

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Information regarding Ferrari's floor did come from an email received by Coughlan. That is not in dispute, and is something that McLaren have acknowledged.

The issue of the 780-page document which was either sent or handed to Coughlan is a different issue and, in my opinion, should be seen in the light of Stepney & Coughlan making plans to move elsewhere, possibly to Honda. McLaren have consistently denied having any knowledge of this document before the 3rd July.

It is being argued that as McLaren used the email, there is the possibility that they would be prepared to use the document as well and yes, that possibility does exist. Obviously, as far as Ferrari are concerned, the document contained confidential information that could be helpful to any rival.

Ron Dennis has consistently denied that McLaren saw, let alone made use of, this document. Nick Fry has also said nothing was shown to him at meetings with Stepney/Coughlan. Why should one be believed and not the other? The common link between the two is Stepney/Coughlan's possession of a Ferrari document.

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this is what Ive been trying to get across all along. within McLaren, Ferrari and the FIA, it was known that they were 2 seperate issues. the problem is that Todt (or whoever leaked information to the Itallian press) kept trying top make out that it was all one thing.

email about floor = whistleblowing = no problem
780 page dossier = MC and NS acting alone in their best interests.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

email about floor = whistleblowing = no problem

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Actually, it's a big problem.

Had the whistle been blown in the direction of the FIA, then there would be no problem.

Much as he would love to be the sole arbitor of all things, Ron Dennis is not the head of organising body of world motorsport and therefore his organisation was the incorrect recipient.

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

I was referring to RD's comment that "we hope and would like to find a solution between the teams as opposed to one that is the subject of a more aggressive and damaging process for Formula One."

That is a practical approach what is becoming a bigger and bigger mess for F1 as a whole. It's as if the origins of this whole thing don't matter at all any more. The media are loving it and feeding off the whole thing like a pack of wolves, and forums like this are no better.

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Well, it is a practical approach if your name is Ron.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Actually, it's a big problem.

Had the whistle been blown in the direction of the FIA, then there would be no problem.

Much as he would love to be the sole arbitor of all things, Ron Dennis is not the head of organising body of world motorsport and therefore his organisation was the incorrect recipient.

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come on man, it would have been practically impossible to have taken it to the FIA. it has more leaks than a fishnet condom.

if Nigel wanted to blow his brains out, then confidentially going to the FIA was a good first step.

this way, he could remain incognito.

I suppose it would have been better if nobody mentioned that Ferrari had found a way to bypass the rules wouldnt it ;)

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

What lies regarding Stepneygate? So McLaren had a shambolic pitstop during qualifying, and an equally shambolic press conference. Good for them.

I was referring to RD's comment that "we hope and would like to find a solution between the teams as opposed to one that is the subject of a more aggressive and damaging process for Formula One."

That is a practical approach what is becoming a bigger and bigger mess for F1 as a whole. It's as if the origins of this whole thing don't matter at all any more. The media are loving it and feeding off the whole thing like a pack of wolves, and forums like this are no better.

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Arrows, RD's lies go well beyond last weekend. He publishes this letter where he keeps saying "Ferrari run an illegal car in Australia", and that what Stepney did was the perfect thing (that you tell about your company's wrongs to the competition and not to the authorities). And after that he wants to sit down with Todt and talk? :mark:

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

come on man, it would have been practically impossible to have taken it to the FIA. it has more leaks than a fishnet condom.

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I'm interested in your sources for this. Year after year, the FIA holds confidential information from all the teams, and constantly mantains confidential communication with the teams regarding their car development. And now you know that they leak information :rolleyes: Care to mention any example?

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Originally Posted by tinchote

I'm interested in your sources for this. Year after year, the FIA holds confidential information from all the teams, and constantly mantains confidential communication with the teams regarding their car development. And now you know that they leak information :rolleyes: Care to mention any example?

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well, we have members prejudging the outcome of a hearing before it occurs, ITV commentators being given inside information about a closed hearing after the fact, members claiming they opposed the verdict in contradiction to the official statement and thats just this story. lets not go into EU investigations into anti-trust, extortion, abusing dominant position, imposing unreasonable restrictions etc, etc, etc.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

come on man, it would have been practically impossible to have taken it to the FIA. it has more leaks than a fishnet condom.

if Nigel wanted to blow his brains out, then confidentially going to the FIA was a good first step.

this way, he could remain incognito.

I suppose it would have been better if nobody mentioned that Ferrari had found a way to bypass the rules wouldnt it ;)

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Firstly, the Ferrari floor was legal. It was within the rules as they were written at the time. Subsequently, the rules were re-written, making the floor illegal had it been used again.
Since you need a basic lesson in legal affairs, here is a simple and basic legal point taught to under-graduate lawyers on day one.....
If you commit an act that later becomes illegal, you cannot be charged with committing a crime.

Even the least learned of the legal profession could tell you that. It appears that only you and Ron Dennis don't understand, but anyway....

Since the Ferrari floor was, according to yourself and Ron Dennis illegal and therefore an attempt to cheat, even though it passed scrutineering at Melbourne, it therefore has to be your logic that Mclaren's 4-pedal brake/steer system was also illegal and an attempt to cheat.

Evidence that your beloved Ron is capable of bending the rules, unless of course a different set of values are applied.

Which wouldn't surprise me.

Secondly, it is laughable beyond contempt for Ron and you to argue that it was better to go to the opposition than to the governing body.

Ron Dennis signed the Concorde Agreement, then happily breaks it when it suits him, and you still try to tell us he is honest and credible.

Yeah, right.

No wonder Todt and Ferrari don't want to help.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Firstly, the Ferrari floor was legal. It was within the rules as they were written at the time. Subsequently, the rules were re-written, making the floor illegal had it been used again.
Since you need a basic lesson in legal affairs, here is a simple and basic legal point taught to under-graduate lawyers on day one.....
If you commit an act that later becomes illegal, you cannot be charged with committing a crime.

Even the least learned of the legal profession could tell you that. It appears that only you and Ron Dennis don't understand, but anyway....

Since the Ferrari floor was, according to yourself and Ron Dennis illegal and therefore an attempt to cheat, even though it passed scrutineering at Melbourne, it therefore has to be your logic that Mclaren's 4-pedal brake/steer system was also illegal and an attempt to cheat.

Evidence that your beloved Ron is capable of bending the rules, unless of course a different set of values are applied.

Which wouldn't surprise me.

Secondly, it is laughable beyond contempt for Ron and you to argue that it was better to go to the opposition than to the governing body.

Ron Dennis signed the Concorde Agreement, then happily breaks it when it suits him, and you still try to tell us he is honest and credible.

Yeah, right.

No wonder Todt and Ferrari don't want to help.

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get personal if you want sweetheart :kiss: but lets just blow some holes in the Itallian propaganda you spout.

Was the floor illegal? YES. It contravened the rules. the reason it got through scruitenering is that it contravened the rules in a way that didn't show up in the tests in place.

Question! An athlete takes a new type of performance drug that does not show up on the tests. Is he breaking the law and cheating?

Answer. YES as was proved a couple of years ago with a performance enhancing drug that was not identifyable as it had been engineered to not show up.

They were breaking the rules and hoping not to get caught just as Ferrari were. they were totally against the spitit of the rules just as Ferrari were.

as for McLarens pedal, then there was nothing in the rules about it. It wasn't a test that they managed to fudge but an innovation. Subsequently, it was banned.

lastly, can you please print me out a copy of the Concord agreement to back up what youre saying :p :

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

as for McLarens pedal, then there was nothing in the rules about it. It wasn't a test that they managed to fudge but an innovation.

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It was banned as it contravened the rule that states that the only steering input must be from steering wheel.

Thanks for showing me you have double standards.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

Question! An athlete takes a new type of performance drug that does not show up on the tests. Is he breaking the law and cheating?

Answer. YES as was proved a couple of years ago with a performance enhancing drug that was not identifyable as it had been engineered to not show up.

They were breaking the rules and hoping not to get caught just as Ferrari were. they were totally against the spitit of the rules just as Ferrari were.

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A totally erroneous and false argument to use.

Taking drugs in athletics is illegal even if the drugs in question cannot be tested. The rules in Athletics specify that performance enhancing drugs of any description are illegal.

There is no relative law to Formula One design.

Finding a design loophole in Formula One is not illegal. It is simply being smart and having a design which interprets the rules in such a way as to conform to the letters of the law.

Ferrari were not charged with any offence, may I remind you.

There is a significant difference between the two that only somebody trying to spin an argument would ignore.