Do You Know the Real Islam?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I am not blind to the shortcomings of atheists. People will always do bad things, but are atheists doing bad things because they are atheist?

Perfect place to quote Weinberg:

With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

---

Breathtaking.

You take a quote that uses religious (and IMO outdated) contexts of good and evil to damn religion? Again, rather simplistic don't you think? I thought atheists were beyond believing in the existence of 'good' and 'evil'. Also you think that good people only do evil things because of religion?

Ever studied group psychology? Ever looked into how atrocities and mob behaviour develop? Again all I can say is wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

If it makes me arrogant then so be it.

I personally think that we should make a stand when other peoples beliefs cross the line and start to intrude into our everyday lives, and it is not just extremists who are guilty of this. I'm not going to be told that I should shy away from ridiculing their beliefs.

In the closing sentence of my last post (that you didn't quote), I conceeded that organised religion might be able to lay claim to some positive things. But I think the opposite has happened much more often.

---

So in what way does the way religion is quietly practiced by the billions of faithful around the world intruding into your everyday life (and don't include things like terrorism because that clearly is extremist) to the extent that you have to ridicule others?

I've made clear that I believe you underrate the positive things religion has done throughout human history by negating them, claiming they are merely 'humanistic' factors. We are not going to agree on that point so lets let that drop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

Once again, they don't think that because they are atheist, they think like that because they are ignorant to reason and just happen to be atheist. The girl I quoted was ignorant (to physics) because of her religion.

---

Again a nice easy way to sweep an inconvenience under the carpet. Lets clarify your logic here.

If they are atheist and they are pro-science then that shows how rational atheists are. If they are anti-science then they are merely ignorant but happen to be atheist.

If they are religious and pro-science, well that happens and proves nothing. If they are religious and they are anti-science then that demonstrates the anti-scientific nature of religion.

Correct me where I'm wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't disagree with your standpoint, but surely you must agree that there are situations in which one cannot escape the fact that the effect of a particular religious belief, or, more to the point, clash of opposing religious beliefs has been more damaging than if said religious belief or beliefs had not entered the equation.

---

Yes clearly religion is used as a political tool and a clash of religions is a common cause for conflict.

However I also believe that in many cases the religious aspect is overplayed for many many reasons and the underlying causes lie elsewhere.

Take NI for an example. Its termed as a Catholic vs Protestant conflict but that really isn't the case. It is more a conflict between the native Irish and immigrants who are predominantly from the West coast of Scotland or England.

Likewise many conflicts that involve the Muslim world and its neighbours are about recent population movements and similar conflicts over territory. Although religion might be a factor the dividing lines are also often ethnic and/or tribal too.

But there are also plenty of cases where religion is almost the sole cause for the conflict occurring in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malbec

Breathtaking.

You take a quote that uses religious (and IMO outdated) contexts of good and evil to damn religion? Again, rather simplistic don't you think? I thought atheists were beyond believing in the existence of 'good' and 'evil'. Also you think that good people only do evil things because of religion?

Ever studied group psychology? Ever looked into how atrocities and mob behaviour develop? Again all I can say is wow.

---

I'm not sure to what extent I agree with Steinberg's statement. I think it would depend on what can be classed as religion. You would also have to say people's belief in Communism or Nazism as on obvious example of where good people will do bad. But if one was to think Steinberg is correct, they may have to conceed that 'for a bad person to do good it takes religion'.

There was once a study of Israeli schoolchildren on the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua (The Battle of Jericho is essentially another mass genocide in the name of God). The children were asked: 'Do you think Joasua and the Isrealites acted rightly or wrongly?' The options were A (total approval), B (partial approval) and c (total disapproval). 66% gave total approval.

A different group of Israeli children were given the same story but Joshua's name was replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by the Chinese kingdom. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7% of the children approved General Lins behaviour.

I'm confused by your suggestion that an atheist doesn't believe in the existence of good. Goodness in humans can have a Darwinian explanation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malbec

So in what way does the way religion is quietly practiced by the billions of faithful around the world intruding into your everyday life (and don't include things like terrorism because that clearly is extremist) to the extent that you have to ridicule others?

---

In 2009 I went with some friends to the LGBT Pride festival at Blackpool. It was a great event where everyone - gay, straight, asexual, - could enjoy music, comedy, learn about safe sex etc. Sadly, the event in my mind was overshadowed by a few people outside the gate. Holding up banners such as Jesus hates fags and GAY -Got Aids Yet.

Now I accept that you could argue that those people are probably extremists, not all religious people are homophobic and that non-religious people can also be homophobic. But that would be completely missing the point. I know plenty of gay people who think religion is organised homophobia. It isn't nice, is it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malbec

Again a nice easy way to sweep an inconvenience under the carpet. Lets clarify your logic here.

If they are atheist and they are pro-science then that shows how rational atheists are. If they are anti-science then they are merely ignorant but happen to be atheist.

If they are religious and pro-science, well that happens and proves nothing. If they are religious and they are anti-science then that demonstrates the anti-scientific nature of religion.

Correct me where I'm wrong.

---

I didn't suggest that pro-science atheists shows how rational atheists are. It shows that some people want to learn things, some people don't want to learn things. But some people who are religous don't wish to learn new things because they believe the bible holds all the answers. It depresses me.

I think maybe we are reaching a stalemate in our debate and I accept that the position I hold is an unpopular one. But thankyou for your time.

Oh God...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by schmenke

Oh God...

---

..something I said? :erm:

Why am I getting adverts from 'Single Muslims.com' ?

Jesus Christ, why can't everyone just chill?!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

This thread is rather intense now lol. Its christmas, lets just enjoy the time we have with our families and if religion plays a part for you, then great :) .

---

Ahhh, so you're trying to use a religious festival to shutdown a debate? ;) Shocking!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by henners88

Haha I suppose I am.

Its not a religious festival to me though. :)

---

A celebration of a cultural tradition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

A celebration of a cultural tradition.

---

That’s probably a better way to look at it.
Many of the Christmas traditions that we observe this time of year have little to do with the actual birth of Jesus Christ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I'm not sure to what extent I agree with Steinberg's statement. I think it would depend on what can be classed as religion. You would also have to say people's belief in Communism or Nazism as on obvious example of where good people will do bad. But if one was to think Steinberg is correct, they may have to conceed that 'for a bad person to do good it takes religion'.

---

If you want to claim that atheism is about reason and applying scientific principles then you cannot use a quote that ignores the last 50 years of psychology without attracting criticism.

Exercises such as the Stanford and Milgram experiments have shown that very little is needed to make a 'good' person do 'bad' things, certainly not something as big and cumbersome as religion. All you need is a little powerplay and light coercion and there you go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

There was once a study of Israeli schoolchildren on the battle of Jericho in the book of Joshua (The Battle of Jericho is essentially another mass genocide in the name of God). The children were asked: 'Do you think Joasua and the Isrealites acted rightly or wrongly?' The options were A (total approval), B (partial approval) and c (total disapproval). 66% gave total approval.

A different group of Israeli children were given the same story but Joshua's name was replaced by 'General Lin' and 'Israel' replaced by the Chinese kingdom. Now the experiment gave opposite results. Only 7% of the children approved General Lins behaviour.

---

In our debate I find the points you use to illustrate your arguments often have large flaws and this is one of them.

This might upset a few people but the Israelis are not a good example for this kind of thing. As a population they have managed to find a way of dissociating their own behaviour from what is commonly acceptable across other societies. This is a population group for example that is utterly incapable of seeing any parallel between what was done to them by the Nazis and what they are doing to the Palestinians, and in fact are often apoplectic if you try.

Walling off Jews into a particular part of town and limiting or halting their movements and harassing them is utterly unacceptable for them but doing exactly the same to Palestinians elicits barely a word of protest, more seen as a perfectly logical normal reaction to events.

So no, it does not surprise me at all that they find shocking acts of barbarity unacceptable when it has a neutral name on it but fine when it is done by Israelis. I think this isn't so much a religious factor (although I do agree religion plays a role) but is more a national trait, one honed by their experiences both in WW2 and more recently within the Middle East.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

I'm confused by your suggestion that an atheist doesn't believe in the existence of good. Goodness in humans can have a Darwinian explanation.

---

The concept of 'good' and 'evil' is utterly simplistic and are outdated religious term. While I use the terms as simplifications because I cannot be bothered to expand my arguments I find that those two words fall woefully short of being able to express the often very complex reasoning behind human actions. Again I think even a basic understanding of psychology would demonstrate how poor 'good' and 'evil' are in explaining human behaviour.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

In 2009 I went with some friends to the LGBT Pride festival at Blackpool. It was a great event where everyone - gay, straight, asexual, - could enjoy music, comedy, learn about safe sex etc. Sadly, the event in my mind was overshadowed by a few people outside the gate. Holding up banners such as Jesus hates fags and GAY -Got Aids Yet.

Now I accept that you could argue that those people are probably extremists, not all religious people are homophobic and that non-religious people can also be homophobic. But that would be completely missing the point. I know plenty of gay people who think religion is organised homophobia. It isn't nice, is it?

I didn't suggest that pro-science atheists shows how rational atheists are. It shows that some people want to learn things, some people don't want to learn things. But some people who are religous don't wish to learn new things because they believe the bible holds all the answers. It depresses me.

I think maybe we are reaching a stalemate in our debate and I accept that the position I hold is an unpopular one. But thankyou for your time.

---

I'm sorry to hear that your experiences with religion have been overwhelmingly negative. Mine haven't been.

I don't agree with the generally homophobic tone emanating from several religions but I have also seen amongst my group of friends at uni behaviour that rises above that, including three Christian girls (of the type who hold bible reading sessions) befriending an openly lesbian girl to the point they formed a clique within a clique. If there was any effort made to 'convert' this girl from her wicked ways I didn't see it and they are still close friends. These Christian girls were able to realise that their beliefs were for them and didn't judge others with it. There are many religious people who are capable of this and do so.

Also amongst my devoutly religious colleagues many are heavily involved in research and one or two openly claim that it is their religious duty to expand scientific knowledge in their field to improve medical care. Where do these guys fit in to your views? Presumably their positive contributions are eradicated by all the negative effects religion has had right?