Great video https://youtu.be/8-OumTfkgvY
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Great video https://youtu.be/8-OumTfkgvY
Funny that Toksport agreed that one pass was more extreme than the other which resulted in 5 seconds and 10 seconds penalty. If they'd have argued that's besides the point maybe they'd have got 2x 10s penalty and the win?Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
It's said in the appeals that this particular corner was discussed with a manufacturer, the stewards and the organiser after the recce; so if Toksport knew specifically to send out a camera here, surely Georges/Lefebvre knew about it too? If so, who's the idiots?
Lefebvre's explanation (in stewards decision) is that he cut the corner "for safety reasons".
It also says the protest was submitted before PS. I rechecked that during that penalty party in Monte 2021 everyone was getting 5s per cut. Since Lefebvre was at that time 23s up it was unlikely they would change results. (Maybe to put pressure (or make him cut less) before PS, but dunno when Lefebvre got to know).
Still I think the timing of the appeal was bad. Should have done it saturday evening. Also still stand that it was good not to change results.
If you compare what Lefebvre did, on the corner he was penalised for twice in Ypres, with the corner that brought about all the penalties in SS4/7 of Monte 2021, it's actually quite offensive that Lefebvre got any sort of penalty at all here.
In Ypres, we're talking centimetres at most, to the wrong side of some imaginary line through a single corner, with the penalty for the second offence being more severe than for the first.
In Monte, it was metres, missing one corner completely, with the penalties for first and second offences being the same.
I can see why Alain Georges is upset. I would be too.
In Monte it was first time people were getting penalized for this big time. Also might have something to do with the sheer number of drivers ( I count at least 15 including half of Rally1 still in the rally).Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
Since then they are specially warned not to cut.
Here Lefebvre was half a car (1m) more in than anyone else (Rossel included, Rossel even cut less than Ingram), twice on the same corner and on a few others. Just check the other corner on same SS15 at 4:50. Except on the other corner(s) there weren't people filming that send in a complaint.
The stewards decision also says that they don't consider onboards as enough proof. Lucky for Lefebvre.
AG should just be happy the stewards made the good decision not to change whole results, instead of complaining that someone caught them braking the rules.
As I wrote on twitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Feels strange seeing CC complain about people giving "abuse" to Solberg for Finland and then reading all the zero and 1 point scores he gives. As long as comments towards Solberg are on similar level it is the same, except CC does this for a living.
Sure there is a line but can't draw it at being unable to say anything.
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The scores this time are fine. Whether the low ones should be 0, 1 or 2 points doesn't really matter.
Btw, this might have gone under the radar, but this was only the second podium on tarmac for Lappi, with his first being way back in Germany 2018, I know he didn't display any amazing times but he managed to keep his nose clean and get another good result.
Also first time Lappi scores two consecutive podiums. Usually a podium (or other great result like Sardegna 2017) has resulted in a crash in the next rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
I think he did very well and precisely what was missing up to this point of the season (including in Finland).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
His job at Toyota right now should not be to charge for wins and risk crashes, especially not when one or both other Toyotas are out (yes, talking about Sardinia), or on first stage (Croatia).
His main job is to score points when the two top drivers have an issue and score more points than Hyundai.
I heard somewhere (pbrly Allive) that this might have saved his seat for next year (vs Katsuta), I can agree on that.
And like you said he delivered that very well, hopefully he can keep the momentum and not mock it up on an event everyone but him & Breen did last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
No, I mean that I can understand Alain Georges if he's upset with the behaviour of the Toksport team. I don't like it as well. You're reading things that aren’t there.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
The two protests were received on Sunday at 12:55 and 12:56. Alain Georges said that he was informed of the protests on the podium of the rally. He initially thought that Lefebvre didn't follow the liasion route or something, so he seemed pretty unaware of what might be the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
What you believe isn’t really what matters. What matters for me is that one of the Toksport team members (Bernt Kollevold) went to a turn to film the competitors of Andreas Mikkelsen. Nobody forced Lefebvre to cut that deep, that’s absolutely right. But I want to add that Ypres Rally has a lot of these places. It’s part of the character of the rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
If you want to enforce this rule in Ypres all competitors will get penalties. But you can’t really enforce it in a way that treats everyone the same. The FIA or the organisation can’t control it. The only way to enforce it is by complaints. That’s the issue. It’s arbitrary. And to add to that, teams have an incentive to ‘catch’ their adversaries.
Maybe you guys can understand it with the picture below.Quote:
Originally Posted by J4MIE
If your conclusion is that DG Sport should’ve filed a complaint for this cut, then that’s exactly what my problem is.
People make the argument that Lefebvre ‘knew it’ and ‘he’s the idiot’. In the Stewards Decisions there’s a reference to the Clerk of the Course Communication 6. This communication was the result of ‘a Manufacturer raising the question of corner cutting before the event’. The Clerk of the Course Communication 6 says: “Furthermore, on the special stages the organisers may erect barriers or any other hindrances where they believe competitors have deviated from the roadway during reconnaissance or the first running of the stages. Any deviation will be reported to the Stewards.”
This is a very general statement. I really don’t think Lefebvre knew about anything. He drove like he always does in Belgium. I’m not sure about that of course, but it doesn’t really matter for me actually.
About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
Indeed, what you believe isn't what really matters. Here is your conspiracy theory that Toksport sent him to film specifically competitors of Mikkelsen and then specifically told their drivers not to cut on that specific corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
Somehow Ingram and Rossel got the memo backwards then, as Ingram cut much more than Rossel, who was similar to Mikkelsen... and both meters off Lefevbre.
I watched the two runs of onboards of Lefevbre and compared with Mikkelsen, Rossel and Ingram (all Rally2 available at that point) and it was immediatelly clear that Lefevbre was deeper on all cuts where you could pick. It's not that it was just specific corner where everything was different. Sure I haven't watched other stages.
How deep is ok is for stewards/rules to decide and clearly indicate. Don't see the big issue as long as there is a clear definition. For example "not all 4 wheels off the road". (Was there one communicated before the rally? I dunno, some senteces seem to point to that). If that picture is from SS and all wheels are off road (not 100% clear angle) then that should lead to same penalty (5s for first offence) if there is to be a consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
There has to be a clear line of what is allowed and what is not. Not a fluffy one, where one thinks is ok while others don't.
I think so as well, and with this penalty the stewards indicated that this way was not ok for WRC. This limit should have been clearly communicated to everyone before the rally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
Obviously those should be put before recce like it is usually done on just about all rallies.Quote:
About the suggestion to put barriers in cuts… I don't think it would be smart if the organisation started putting up blocks or haybales after the recce has finished. I think everybody on this forum understands why.
You know who the cameraman is, right? Or more importantly, who he works for / with, and in what capacity?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
I wouldn't have said the 'conspiracy' involved the whole team. Just the one crew. In fact, such a small circle of trust to the point that none of the other crews being serviced by the same team (I hesitate to call them team-mates in this instance) probably had a clue the 'sting' was happening. But a sting WAS happening.
Taking the facts that are available to us into consideration, it seems that the protesting crew:
-knew this corner would be somewhere a committed driver with lots of Belgian experience would take a bigger than legal cut
-sent their man to film at that location with the express intent of gathering evidence of car 24 taking such a cut
-made sure they were as neat and tidy as possible to set a nice contrast
-sat on the evidence until the end of the event, then tried to use it to get a crew that had beaten them fairly resoundingly over three days of rallying enough of a penalty to overhaul them
I don't like it. The stewards shouldn't have entertained it. The organisers shouldn't have allowed it to happen. Tell me why I'm wrong.
Oh, but that's not my conspiracy theory. :) That's what Alain Georges tells himself. If you understand French you can listen yourself. There are some other examples as well. https://www.facebook.com/paulfraikin...4785685721366/.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
So Lefebvre made deeper cuts than other drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Aha! So now we're on the path that manufacturers need to check the cutting of their competitors. Because if one does it, they all need to do it. That's not the way I want to see the sport evolve. Respect the track limits like in Formula 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Think about it again. A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally.
You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?
Competitors self-regulate themselves quite a bit. If they know they risk a penalty for taking 4 wheels of the road, they won't do it. They won't rely on "not getting caught" cause it's too big risk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
There have to be rules right, you are not suggesting that cars drive where they want and it depends on gentleman's agreement?
Toksport team member was in a turn on a rally and was filming. That's the facts, what purpose he went there for is speculation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
On one side you can have deep conspiracy theories (ref other post) on the other side he could just go in a corner and afterwards notice that Lefevbre was the only one completely off the road, or it can be something in between.
As noted before the protest was submitted before PS, when the gap was 23s. In Monte which was the only recent example people got penalized 5s per cut. Even with 10s it wouldn't be enough to win.
So it is not clear that the complaint was "attempt to win the rally".
But I totally agree they should have submitted it Saturday evening and if it was on purpose this late it is bad form.
At the same time it is stupid, cause it is much less likely the stewards will change the results after the race is finished.
Sure so cutting straight across a field (like Mikkelsen did in Poland 2015 or so) is ok? For sure not, so you need to draw a line.Quote:
You've never been to Ypres I think? Ypres is all about cutting.
Now you are just being stupid.Quote:
Outside assistance is also forbidden on the stages, right? So helping cars back on the road - a common practice in many countries, part of the rally spirit - is a practice that should be sanctioned?
People need to stop calling him a Toksport team member. It's disingenuous. The man is Andreas Mikkelsen's regular gravel crew driver. You think he just so happened to be at that corner? That's a naive assessment at best.
Call it a conspiracy, call it what you want, it's bad sportsmanship and it should not have even gone as far as the stewards.
Sure it was all deep sting with a small circle of thrust.......and the illuminati are among them..Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
- So they knew that Lefevbre will be the only one cutting with 4 wheels off (and breaking the rules - your words) none of other Rally1s or P1 Rally2s did, as confirmed by stewards.
- If you watch first pass (SS11) Mikkelsen is actually too fast into the cut and runs wide on the tarmac, for sure that would lead to being more tidy on next pass. Contrast wasn't vs Mikkelsen it was vs everyone
- last is in previous post, submitting the evidence towards the end is stupid cause it's less likely to change results and previous penalty history gave no reason it would work
The stewards did not take it as you suggest, cause they didn't change the results. I agree the organisers should not have allowed this in the first place by being very clear about the rules or by adding anti-cuts.
You said Lefevbre broke the rules, pointing it is bad sportsmanship and should not be reported to stewards? Are you serious?Quote:
Originally Posted by ouvreur
-------------------
I fully agree that it is bad sportsmanship to report this too late on purpose (if it was), that's a quite different topic.
I'm sure the only reason it was late, was because they waited to see if he did still stay in front as to whether to protest.
Of course you would always wait for that.
Same how the FIA wait until after the rally to check if a car is fully legal!
I'd appreciate it if you stopped twisting my words and giving a false impression of what I object to.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Nobody of sound mind could have any problem with one competitor protesting the transgression of another. It's essential to the sport.
The way car 20 did it and their timing are what I disagree with. I also strongly disagree with the idea that Lefebvre somehow got an enormous advantage by being half a car further into this one cut, I don't like the way the precedent of Monte 2021 hasn't been followed, and think the penalty is disproportionate, though I appreciate the fact the stewards - maybe even deliberately - didn't penalise SL enough to cost him the lead.
BUT
I really don't think this matter should even have got to the stewards' room.
Now, please, don't twist my words again.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
Yeah, this isn't really going anywhere, is it? Let's agree to disagree.
You assume that it was a deliberate effort (your own words) including:
- going to the spot and filming for this purpose
- telling Toksport crews or only Mikkelsen not to cut (nobody else than Lefebvre cut so much on all onboards, Mikkelsen cuts similar to others)
- sending complain before PS to win the rally (deadline to send was until 18h, why not after PS?)
Do you see there are quite a number of steps between facts and your assumptions?
I also disagree with the timing. But I am not making a ton of additional assumptions of how they planned two days in advance to win the rally. Certainly not assumptions that go against evidence.
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With regards to advantage he got maybe a second, then it is two passes and then you have other spots. Like the one at 4:50 of same stage (which I orginally thought was the reported one). Maybe it might be interesting to watch other stages too, also to see what happened where that pic from Integrale was taken.
No I want to know how do you keep drivers from unlimited cuts if you don't have any rules against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
You seem to think that this cut was fine, yet the one in Monte wasn't (or I am wrong?).
So how do you differentiate between them?
I certainly believe you can't rely on "gentlements agreements" in a sport about millions decided by parts of a second.
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/shoul...return-to-wrc/
A shame it won't, although I would add some night time stages if it's run at the end of August instead of it's usual June slot.
Exactly. Isn't this actually the gentlemanly thing to do? If car 20 had crashed out on Sunday the appeal would have been worthless but would have taken up however long of the steward's time on Saturday evening. How many complaints would be lodged each weekend just in case they matter at the end, hundreds?Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
That Toksport vs Lefebvre situation is disgrace to the sport. Dont know if all this "circus'' was actually initiated by Mikkelsen himself but this just downgrades his reputation even more and so his chances to return to WRC1 team (if there was any). Sad.
Very surprised by one point in Colin Clark grades about Fourmaux:
The instructions could not have been clearer – forget the fight with Solberg and bring that car back in one piece.
Clearly, looking at his comments during the last day, Fourmaux was trying to catch 4th even being sick.
So either Clark is wrong about the team orders or Fourmaux deliberately refused them: if it’s the second option, either he is out before the end of the season for not respecting the orders (don’t see how this could not be sanctioned) or M-Sport and sponsors already told him he will be out for next year and he is trying to show himself to other manufacturers. Very strange behavior.
Only point that may save him a bit is that there are two tarmac rounds remaining and, without Loeb, he is maybe the best M-Sport tarmac driver on pure speed; but wouldn’t be surprised not to see him in New Zealand for example (Acropolis is a little bit early to organize a replacement).
Why need to organize replacement for Acropolis? Loeb is there. They have entered six Pumas!
One thing to the Lefebvre protest. The only unsportsmanship behavior is a driver cutting more than the others, more than allowed, more than discussed before the event. That and only that is unsporting. The rest are conspiracy theories.
"A Toksport team member went to a turn to film a deep cut of the rivals. He went there with that purpose. A day later, his video is used in a complaint in an attempt to win the rally after the rally has finished. I think it's far from fair play and far from the spirit of rally." A quick question regarding this: What about the regulation that forbids any team member being present on a Special Stage?
Okay.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
So DG Sport did a bad job by not filming this spot. It cost them at least 5 seconds. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...51e747d22d.jpg
simply only existing in your dreams ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Hokkaido
That should shut some Mikkelsen fanboys mouth :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
Let the filming wars begin
Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk
Submit it to the FIA so they can penalise Mikkelsen also :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Integrale
So Thread closed?
Not like I care, but you can see in pictures that the cars are not in same spot. Lefebvre is already exiting the corner, few meters back he is in the same place as Mikkelsen.
The complaint has to come from a competitor.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
In a few pages you might begin to see the point some of us are trying to make here. Because some of you are trying your very best not to see it. It's like playing chess with a pigeon.
True, but unlikely in that pic that Lefebre took a full cut there and Mr. "I Follow Rules Other Don't" did take a full cut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lead
It's actually something specifically allowed by the sporting regulations (Article 56.2.1) - between the yellow control board of the arrival time control, to the exit of the stop control of each stage team members are allowed to be there, provided they respect the rest of the regulations regarding service / contact with the cars and team members.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rally Hokkaido