Wow, what an effort making this. Huge changes
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Wow, what an effort making this. Huge changes
basically some good old wrc. still like it a lot!
Agree! Nice looking cars, bit more spectacular than Rally2, but not to much!Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Wrc2 plus would be good move!
If manufacturers can provide some update kit for allready running (rally2) cars,than we would see a field of 20 cars in top class each rally!
Local hero's in the mix for top spots would spice up things.
that's arguable... i think manufacturers will build a "rally1-" more than upgrading the rally2...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duvel
Is it 2011 again?Quote:
Originally Posted by Andre Oliveira
Just interesant read in some resources (just google Extreme E vs Extreme H): Extreme E will be replaced with Extreme H...hydrogen. This might be some kind of first signal-bird of some tides in the top promoter fields. The guy who created Extreme E is the same who built Formula E. And Siemens is going to be involved. Something is brewing.
Interesting indeed. They expect Extreme E in its current form to go away when the hydrogen-powered cars arrive. They say that the new "Extreme H" championship is coming in 2025:
https://racer.com/2023/09/30/why-ext...ts-e-for-an-h/
https://www.extreme-e.com/en/news/11...irst-prototype
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcWPuw7d0m8
I wouldn't be surprised at this point if they're reading our discussions at this point: https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/how-l...-over-the-wrc/
maybe, maybe not, it's not hard for anyone to see that there are fewer and fewer top cars at the start and the idea of Rally2+ or going to Rally2 is not new, in fac it's quite a few years old. I can understand the manufacturer's view that they invested in this spaceframe chassis and want to keep it. Also for MSport if you look at the car they need to make into a rally car I suppose Rally2 is no-go, the Fiesta doesn't exist anymore and the Puma seems to be not ideal, the spaceframe solves this. The concept of Rally1- or Rally1.5 or whatever is coming up more and more. We'll see what happens, for me the current situation, with 8 top cars and stupid points system si not compelling at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
let's check!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eli
very roadside rumors from italy (don't really trustworthy to me, but...)
lancia hired david richards to manage their rally2/rally2+ adventure to come.
The roadgoing Puma has a similar wheelbase to the Rally1 car and is narrower too, so should be possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
To me the most relevant comparison is to the Mk1 Mini Countryman;
Puma is 4186mm long - 89 longer than MC (79mm longer than the current-gen Fabia by the way)
Puma is 1537mm tall - 24 lower than MC
Obviously there are more considerations that go into assessing the suitability of the Puma as a Rally2 car. But I was surprised to find out it’s lower than a Countryman so maybe it’s not so farfetched an idea?
I have been and I remain a supporter of the idea of Rally2+ becoming the main class for WRC. The current situation is just not sustainable for the series, no matter how good the cars are.
To be honest, I would actually be happy with Rally2 if all 5 brands (Toyota, Hyundai, Ford, Citroen & Skoda) would field teams of at least 3 works cars, plus customer entries. Strong competition with a deep field of entries trumps 8 Rally1 cars for me everytime.
I know others have different opinions, but I think the WRC needs to step back to go forward.
it's the manufacturers to have different opinions. skoda and citroen already said no to the idea, and generally no to works team. they want only clients. maybe they ll change their mind...Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
When FIA is making rules for the future, the last parties they should listen to are the 2,5 manufacturers crying for their sick mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Choosing the Wrc2+ path will give FIA the same 2,5 plus 2-3 more, and a much better show!
...paying the bills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
...not paying the bills competing on equal footing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sulland
I've just read David Evans' article and it's also flawed multiple times beyond any practicable logic, which is always lacking from this pro-Rally2+ argument, however nice it may be imagined panning out on the stages or in the standings.
I'm bored of commenting on this specific car now but I'll entertain the possibility of it happening, which suggests Hyundai will exit at the end of this season and the Promoter's accounts are not healthy. If it happens, it happens. I can't say I'll be following because there's no way to imagine how I'll be able to follow.
"The working group has stipulated a minimum of 25 competitive cars in the WRC’s premier category from round one next season."
...doubt. If they are going for Rally2+ cars, we will have to believe that theres at least 17 privateers willing to UPGRADE their cars in order to fit the new top class together with 3 hyundais, 3 toyotas and 2 msports (well... IF they are all willing to keep the "factory teams", of course... and I'd guess Hyundai would quit the factory team)
BTW... really weird to just decide this number at a table, eh? "25 cars starting for 2025". Yeah, right. Whos paying for that? Weird.
THO... If they go with Rally2, then Fine. Its solved, we WILL HAVE enough privatters. Screw Hyundai, Ford, Tierry and Ogier if they "dont want to drive Rally2 cars" hehe
Whatever the car formula, that level of entry is a pure fantasy without a drastic reduction in the number of WRC events unless they allow "WRC’s premier category" cars to run in Regional & National Championships so that local entries can top-up the championship contenders on each WRC event.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
Manufacturers comes and goes, no big deal on that. If you have an exciting championship with good events, the show will be higher and thus you could have wealthy privateers with good sponsors to pay the bills. People would still come to see a better show, even though with "cheaper" cars and TV figures would increase with more exciting battles with different cars and teams/drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
Said that, Hyundai could remain as customer racing, which at the end of the day doesn't affect the show, just naming difference. Same for M-Sport, they would remain as just "M-Sport" without Ford backing. It already happened when Ford withdrew after 2012 (and was "just" Qatar M-Sport WRT). The cars will be on the entry list either way.
Same would apply with Skoda for example, while we could see a comeback from Lancia or also Subaru, which was rumoured to be interested to a cheaper commitment by using Haas F1 business model (purchasing parts and engine from Toyota and maybe outsourcing to a developer like Prodrive in the past).
The whole thing is still how much commitment we would have from WRC Promoter to "sell the brand". Liberty Media in Formula 1, but staying in Europe we can watch at Ratel's SRO creature with GT World Challenge (which grew ridicolously good in the last couple of years!), shows that without investments on crafting something catchy, you wouldn't have any return.
Deary me!
Apart from the Lancia and Subaru point, aren't you just describing ERC? Even that GT series isn't worldly.
Ford and Hyundai would basically be still factory teams in terms of budgets and development, simply without the whole marketing thing of a fully-fledged factory team. Don't think an Average Joe will research through the FIA registration papers to check if "M-Sport Qatar" will have anything different than "M-Sport Ford".Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
I mean, really... I'd go 100% for a Qatar-whoeveritpays-backed private M-Sport team with 3-4 cars at each event like in 2013, rather than a "factory" Ford with 1.5 on the entry list!
At the end of the story, we need an interesting, challenging championship that can deliver spectacle on the special stages and thus on TV to be back to its old glory days. I don't really care about who will pay the fee to the FIA for Manufacturer registration lmao :D
This season, it's value alone is over a million euros to the Promoter, before talking of exposure deals. You are saying the Promoter should invest in a product worth watching, but not giving them the means to, whilst saying the 'whole marketing thing' could stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon
But OK, I thought you were saying bring the manufacturer's championship to an end.
i seriuosly doubt that hiunday will develop an entirely new car only for privateers, and maybe also m-sport. The same is for skoda and otehrs i doubt. they ll continue to sell "normal" rally2 to customer and leave the rally2+ for wrc manufactures.Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon
FIA wouldn't allow them to sell Rally2+ for starters.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
Is that part of the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
A manufacturer sees a bill of €385815 just to register for the championship before design & development costs, entry fees and running costs and that frightens them off. The difference of €118349 registration for a manufacturer team in Rally2 compared with €11835 for a private team probably explains why there are no works teams from Skoda or Citroen.
If the FIA & WRC Promoter were making an entertaining product that they could sell at a suitable profit then they could lower the registration fees and grow the WRC. While they are offering poor quality content and are happy to live off registration and entry fees WRC will never grow.
Exactly this point. If WRC Promoter works on an entertaining product to sell (we talked elsewhere about "selling the story", which is totally spot on), then you don't need to have a "M-Sport Qatar" team, but since there's no investments on this side from the company that is supposed to make the championship grow, then it's reasonable to find a compromise, mid-way solution by allowing "private-factory" teams like we saw in the past with Kronos Racing, Red Bull Skoda, M-Sport Qatar, or Abu Dhabi DS3 team, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
At the end it's a matter of choices. If the championship will be appealing, there would be no need for those gimmicks, but seeing the product right now, allowing "private-factory" outlets is the only feasible solution with Rally2+ cars that would allow to field cars in a cheaper way. And a Rally 2+ with "WRC kit" would fit perfectly for some wealthy privateers.
Mentioning SRO's products in the same context as any other motorsport series is an absolute mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by typhoon
They are rich gentleman series with zero spectators and the bare minimum of media coverage on youtube just so the rich guys can show their mates and feel like proper race car drivers... Most of their races are lucky to get 200k viewers in total. And that's basically the entire audience....
I don't think a manufacturer really gives a shit about the 385k fee to the FIA. If they do, they're not a serious company. This is a World Championship. It's never going to come for free.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boyd
Have you seen how much the FIA charges to F1 drivers for their SuperLicense?!!
It's not so much about being free but about being worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
honestly, it's enough to sell a couple of cars to raise that money! point is the same as always: it's not how much you have to pay. it is how much comes back (ROI)Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
skoda is not using a full factory team 'cause they don't need it to sell cars right now. no one is showing better results at the moment. if hiunday or toyota or others start to beat them constantly, they ll have to invest to show the car is the best, or customer will go away.
Apart from the 1/3 or 1/4 of the sometimes 60+ size grid that is made up of pro teams with pro drivers.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Full free live broadcasts of all sessions, including races from 1 hour sprints to 24 hour endurance with normal track side cameras, on-boards and commentary teams in 2 (sometimes 3) languages that include former formula1 or sportscar drivers. Replays and highlights available for free anytime as well. Compare to what WRC offers for 120 euros per year. The broadcast conditions are tougher for WRC, but still when you really compare it seems strange no? Even the WEC and IMSA put their full race replays on youtube for free a week or two after the race, including the 24h of Le Mans. I ask myself the question if it's better to get a couple million from tv rights or grow your sport/product/audience.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
I don't know specific spectator numbers but maybe you need to reconsider some things. Obviously it's a different business model in GT racing, usually teams have 1 or 2 "Pro-Am" cars with "gentlemen/women" drivers that bring budget fighting in their own subclass and 1 or 2 "Pro" cars with payed fast drivers fighting for the overall win. I think if you look closely there are a lot of "gentlemen/women" drivers in rally as well, who often bring sponsorship and sometimes support some young drivers too, especially at national level. In fact if you look in the history of motor racing in general, including rally, these "rich amateurs" have usually been one of the cornerstones of motorsport. I think it's a mistake to not consider privateers as part of any future plan in any category.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Skoda and Citroen are not 'full factory' efforts right now because the parent company's have different motorsport strategies within their various parent groups (SKoda still feeling the hangover of VW dieselgate, and Stellantis in electric) and therefore they can't get sign-off for a factory effort.
But, they have enough funding to be able to run customer-focused (but supported) operations. So they can afford to run the programmes and pay drivers and for cars etc, but can't politically say these are factory teams.
We all know Skoda is really factory, it's just presented differently for perception reasons....
Rally is not F1 (and that's a good thing). Actually nothing else is F1, F1 is F1, the sooner that is understood the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
Actually it isn't. Had they have a real works team they would be stronger. That's a sure thing. And exactly for that reason it doesn't make much sense for people to automatically expect teams running Rally2 cars to join WRC if it goes Rally2+. Running a factory-supported team in a support championship is something completely different than to run a WRC team. The level of competition and the difference coming from the tinest details is completely different. They are not stupid and know that there is no chance a factory supported private team like Toksport could defeat Toyota or Hyundai in the WRC. Add to that the very fact that running a team which only serves the purpose of bringing numbers makes more damage to the marketing than not running it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend
The whole thing is completely simple and SAME for any motorsport championship be it F1, WRC, MotoGP or Dakar. The value must be worth the investment. The higher the value of the championship, the higher cost is acceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
Don't forget that it goes both ways. A terrible product is never cheap enough.
Also by cutting cost you don't improve the product.
Now think about who is the customers. Is it poor privateers or rich gigantic companies? Which strategy will work for which group of customers? If you go to a sheikh will you offer him the best value for cost city hatchback or a Bugatti? It works the same way with the manufacturers. They will not invest in something cheap just because it's cheap. They need to see the value and only after that they will talk about the cost.
I'd add a bit more to clarify my point. The problem of WRC today is not the cost but the lack of value.
Let's say our cost of today's WRC season is 100%. We know that the value of the championship is not enough to attract new manufacturers.
Now let's cut costs by whatever means. If we are very successful we may cut it to 90% (all season expenses included). Will the same value with 10% discount attract the new manufacturers now? I bet it won't.
So it's clear that what we need is to raise the value substantially. The million Dollar question is how. To be honest I don't know.
That's good point Mirek, it's not just about some cost/return ration but also about the total value. Personally I advocate in favor of privateers and more cars for some reasons like having a wider selection of potential drivers. But to clarify my position, I don't think the solution is found only in the technical regulations.
In fact there needs to be some overall strategy about the "product" of rally, the story you want to tell and so on. Then you can determine the details like event format, points, technical regulations and so on. I don't think there's any one element that someone can "fix".
to me, if there's a way, it has to be in the root core of rallying. and for me, the best thing to extract from there is the variability of it in any aspect.
rally is the sport in which you tackle unexpected and very diverse things. so let's make it the added value.
we can have very different power tech and try a bop to make it race together, (but we can think of it as tech in general, like 2wd vs 4wd). we can expand it onto the format, keeping some "classic" in the current format and leaving space for other proposals like 3/4 short/compact round as some drivers requested. i guess promoter can really ride the "adaptation" and "adventures" storytelling, as well manufacturers can have some spotlight for kinda everything they want to try. Somehow if there's wide range of condition or format, any tech/solution will shine somewhere, sooner or later.
You are an ignorant fool....SRO series have been some of the best motorsport in the last 10 years. Take your WRC tinted glasses off for a change.....Quote:
Originally Posted by rallyfiend