It´s a new kind of SUV´s. Not like the old ones developed from huge Volvos or BMW´s.
New ones are slim, nice looking and will fit in very well in new WRC rules. End of discussion. :)
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It´s a new kind of SUV´s. Not like the old ones developed from huge Volvos or BMW´s.
New ones are slim, nice looking and will fit in very well in new WRC rules. End of discussion. :)
Per, no modern car is slim. Sadly.
Out off interest, did you watch in a forest stage - which one if so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Don't agree with 2017 being busy because a load of 'non-hardcore' fans turning out to see the new cars, I was there, I remember it very well and it was clearly because Elfyn was about to have his day and half of Wales decided to go and cheer him on.
Eddie, if you go as a M-Sport fan to one of their promo days at a rally, there is a high chance that the other M-Sporters will also be performance Ford drivers too. Lets face it, to be an official M-Sporter, you're probably going to be into fast fords too and that's fair enough, but it's not representative. So with that in mind, what have you based your claims on that SUV's will be detrimental to the championship.... You still haven't shown any evidence, other than what your opinion is.
And also, SUVs aren't that big now.
I guess seeing the comments just above this one show that at least a few of the fans on this forum don't give a monkey's about SUVs, if it means the champiohship will potentially be in better health, through more Manu interest.
It all sounds to me like you're probably just a bit gutted yourself about the change - you've literally got nothing to back up your claims, aside from one chap on a fast ford forum. It's a shame you can't see that it might be what the series needs to survive.
Can't see where you replied to my point asking you about why you're so certain the top drivers aren't going to be around to drive the cars too (Like I said, were you aware already that Ogier was already planning on retiring?).
Well, yes SUV´s are. As said, compared to the big older Volvo XC90´s and BMW X5...Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
So, there are SUV´s and SUV´s if you understand what I mean. ;)
(Btw - isn´t Citroen C3 a kind of SUV?)
I think perhaps members need to understand the auto industry marketing jargon better. SUV and Crossover-SUV (CUV) are two different types/segments. I believe the Puma is the latter type. Typically, X-overs are built on a B-segment hatchback base, some even have near identical bodywork. The general public have been steadily educated to visualize SUVs, and later CUVs, as desirable vehicles that could enhance their lifestyle (even though many will never drive them off tarmac!). So manufacturers these days are targeting this growing and profitable segment which is easier to promote than by building a hot-hatch flagship to promote B-segment sales.
We do not have choices. Motorsport and especially WRC is in trouble. If we want our passion to survive and attract manufacturers, we must accept whatever cars will serve this purpose.
We need to keep this sport alive.
guys, are we still arguing about a fiesta with new lights and name, right? :D
I could see this same debate happening in 1989. "What? Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru are going to go rallying on a big sedan? Who wants to watch that?"
Then in ‘93: “What? Ford, Mitsubishi and Subaru are going to go rallying with smaller hatchbacks and saloons? What even is an ‘Impreza’?”Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
It is unbelievable how much time changes things. The Impreza, the car name that is connected more than anything else on this planet with rallying, is now a ridiculously slow car that noone buys.
Subaru decided to split out the Impreza and STI lines for branding purposes but they are still very much "Impreza."Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber21
Today, you can buy more performance models of the Impreza, in more places in the world than at any point in Subaru's history.
So, I'm not sure what you mean by this?
Remember the Audi 200, Skoda Octavia, Subaru Legacy, etc? Yeah, those days happened and we'll get over this too.
The Puma is hardly a traditional SUV, at least no more so than the Mini. Rallying at the top level is a marketing exercise and somebody has to pay for it so it makes sense to follow the consumer. CUV's are selling incredibly well. Both Hyundai and Toyota are also launching cars in this segment.
I agree with you. I already wrote that I love this sport so much and I want to be able to travel the world to watch WRC rallies. I do not care how the cars would look like, if they are small SUVs or not, I just want manufacturers to join and competition. These are enough for the development of the sport.
About Impreza, I meant the latest 1.6 model which is the slowest and pricier car among its competitors.
Fantastic post. We just need to keep the current manus and hopefully add some more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber21
We’re honestly not in a position to pick and choose at the moment.
The cars will always be exciting.
Get put off because of a small body shape change... you’re no fan of rallying, simple as that.
10+Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Great!Quote:
Originally Posted by bomber21
The standard Impreza has always been slow with road noise, awful interior, etc. but was always good value for money, at least in AWD form. Sounds like they are trying to take it upmarket now with associated price tag.
This has gone down well in the Service Park !?
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/the-c...fishs-support/
I'm not going to be 'put off' or stop watching WRC if/when the cars change. After over 30 years and many previous changes that isnt going to happen with any rally fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
You have missed my point (as usual) that this is about what rally fans WANT and what they would PREFER in the future.
If cars are going to change (IMO for the worse) in terms of looks, speed or noise then I am within my rights to say I'm not happy or looking forward to them.
This isnt the same as saying I'm going to give up on rallying.
And it just annoys me when T16 says that he doesnt care what the future cars are like and he will watch whatever they stick out there, and he has no preference or desire for something better (like we have now).
TL;DR: George Donaldson and the whole DirtFish staff wants R5 to be the main class of WRCQuote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I haven’t missed your point at all.... I think you have missed mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
You are claiming that you know what rally fans want (no SUVs) and that introducing them would be detrimental to the sport (via lost fans) See, I understand your point.
I am asking you what gives you the evidence to speak in such general terms about what rally fans want? I understand you aren’t a fan of the SUV, but what evidence have you got that that view is shared on such a scale that it is going to be detrimental to the sport?
Also, I asked why you seem so certain that the top drivers won’t want to drive these cars?
And what about wales 2017? Did you forget about Elfyn?
Which stages have you watched at too?
This is getting a bit tiresome now...
If I had to guess I'd imagine that the move to SUV/'CUV' won't be warmly welcomed, but will have little impact on the (already now niche) following of the sport, particularly if their performance is similar to the current level. Those who gave up on rallying because of the cars used gave up a long time ago. I do believe that '17 cars brought some of these people back in though. Given that you can't provide 'evidence' that it'll have no impact, what evidence should Eddie provide?Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Well Neuville has said "I don't know if I'm really interested to drive these cars but we're going to find out."Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I'm afraid this is where I completely disagree with you over Eddie. Were there more Welsh locals out in 2017 than normal just to cheer on Elfyn? I'd say so. But I have no doubt that the '17 cars made a far greater impact on increased spectator numbers and general following of the sport in 2017, and even more so in subsequent years. I've had numerous discussions with random people out on stages over the last few years, with people who either hadn't closely followed the sport or attended stages since the Group B days or McRae/Burns era. Not one of them said they'd come out to see Elfyn, they all came back to see these cars. Literally the only person I've spoke to who came especially to see Elfyn was the young son (under the age of 10) of a local guy I got talking to in Gwydyr in 2018. Mintexmemory from this forum can probably vouch for this as he was with me!Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I also know a few lapsed fans, to greater or lesser extents, at my work who have followed the sport. I know one attended a Rally GB stage in 2017 after decades away because he wanted to see these cars. Another went to a lot of rallies (national and GB) for years up until around the early 2000s, I'm tempting him back on the basis of seeing these cars. Though he was far more interested in the sound of the Roger Albert Clark than my sales pitch of Rally GB! Additionally, for the few casual observers at my work, it's the hype and videos they've seen on the internet of these cars which has caught their attention. I doubt they could pick Elfyn Evans out of a line up Welshmen...
That's not to write off the SUVs/CUVs, but they'll have to be done right to achieve the same effect.
What's the point of this question? I haven't seen you posting much about attending National rallies, but I wouldn't use that against you to say you're not a proper rally fan...Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Can we leave the personal battles behind and move over to something else? Maybe even *sigh* discuss George Donaldson's idea of moving to R5's.
What Donaldson suggests is that they put a bigger restrictor to get more horsepower, and just reinforce the parts which wouldn't withstand the increased power. I'm not saying it's impossible, but sure not as simple as he makes it sound like.
If we think further, would Skoda join in as a manufacturer team? We know how great that car is, how much better than all the other cars. And would Toyota just drop out for a year while developing their R5 car? Would their drivers go to Skoda then? And what kind of a super team that would be...repeat of the VW era?
Don't forget VW already have an R5Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
But they don't have an active factory team, and VW has decided not to support any ICE motorsports anymore (although not sure if that applies to Skoda as well?)Quote:
Originally Posted by satnav
I know we've talked about the R5+ idea before and this forum have written it off, but I'd love to know from someone who ran the actual M-Sport Fiesta R5+ (or someone from M-Sport) how exactly the costs compared to buying/running the regular R5. That wasn't just a case of running a larger air restrictor, there were some mechanical differences, but they weren't extensive. When I asked someone at Goodwood a few years ago who was running one, I was told there wasn't too big a difference in the costs involved between that and the R5. As a spectator though I wasn't really in a position to ask for a breakdown of the costs! I've haven't got the impression that the R5+ Fiesta has been particularly unreliable, though nobody has been trying to get 400bhp out of one...Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Yes they don't have an active factory team all but in name , VW are still developing this car which could be run as a satellite team by any number of teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Regardless of this I reckon the future will be very different to what we have know in the past not just in motorsport.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Sorry, not going to reply to the points you've made. I get what you're saying about it becoming tiresome and yes, I have a part in that, but you've answered on Eddie's behalf and I still don't see it differently than I did initially. But in the interest of it not getting any more tiresome, happy to leave it.
R5+ Fiesta is/was quite reliable car, didn't have any special weak points, and it was not developed that much, so some improvements are easily possible. Of course mileage of components was way lower. Even 2.0l R5+ was quite reliable car, without any especially big weak point.
And R5+ like it is now (based on Evo2 engine) is faster than 2016 WRC car.
This whole R5+ concept is unfamiliar to me and it's difficult to obtain information on it. According to this the Fiesta R5+ has 30 BHP more than the normal Fiesta R5, so we would be talking around 320 BHP. This is far less than going to 400 BHP like George Donaldson suggested.
R5 was replaced to Rally2 over 4 months ago...
R5+ is marketing name that has been used by Msport only and for older model Fiesta. Or is there R5+ version of New Fiesta R5 ?
Skoda produces only Rally2 cars, others do still R5 cars.
At first we must decide what that new "R5+WRC" means
-what kind of engine?
-restrictor?
-turbo size?
-how many gears?
-stick or paddle sifts?
-diffs?
-how wide? (WRC17 safety cockpit is way wider than R5 one, FIA is not going to go back on safety standards)
-is titanium allowed?
-aerodynamics?
Right now term "R5+" means different thing to different people. For me it´s illegal national old model Fiesta R5
OK, can you ease a bit with that Rally2/R5 talk, it's a bit tiring to hear all over. We all know what we're talking about when we say R5.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
I also think R5+ is only an M-Sport kit for the first model of Fiesta R5 which adds paddle shift, rear wing and turbo restrictor. Then there's also some 2.0L version? For sure they are not illegal, but just not complying to FIA regulations.
The way I see George Donaldson's idea is the cars would be just as R5, but with a bigger restrictor to get more power, and then through testing we would find out which parts need to be reinforced for rallying use. No paddle shift, same engine, same 5 gear box, same diffs, same aero, same width etc. If you start changing them radically, it's already losing its meaning for cost savings. The 2022 cars were anyway going to have simpler aero, gearbox and diffs.
Tommi agrees with me...
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/2022-...cular-makinen/
I don't see SUV's mentioned...Tommi just wants to keep the fancy aero.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Due to his achievements in and outside of the driving seat, Mäkinen will attract fans across the world regardless of the appearance of the cars he enters as Toyota’s WRC boss.
He’s still wary of his responsibility to those fans though: “we need to remember we are doing this sport for fans. If we are doing some new regulations that decrease their interest, then I’m not sure if it’s a good idea.”
Define spectacular......The top guys could make a 1300cc FWD car look spectacular....but I can't see that going down too well. It's easy to say, 'must be spectacular' but not always easy to make happen.
I'd rather a competitive WRC in the long term; if that means a transitional period and 'less spectacular' - I'll take it.
He is just talking about the changes for the Rally1 regulations. Basically Tommi is always standing up for his own team. He has the budget to run these cars so he wants them. He doesn't want to go to R5 because he doesn't have one of those cars. But if Toyota suggests they put those wings and engine on an SUV, I'm sure he will do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Why would tommi want cheaper cars if toyota is willing to pay for the expensive ones, and he's personally earning millions because of that.
If budgets were only half as big he would get away with only half the profits he has today.
Cheapers cars have better profit % and you can sell way more of those cheaper ones...Quote:
Originally Posted by denkimi
Tommi's business is not selling carsQuote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Business models can always change.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
They can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
But that's not what tommi wants. He has a succesfull business model already.