Will we see the Celica name doing a comeback?
Would be nice!
Printable View
Will we see the Celica name doing a comeback?
Would be nice!
Look at Honda, Toyota, Subaru and Suzuki over the last 10-15 years in F1, WRC, WEC and WTCC. It has been nothing but flops, flops and yet more flops.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Japan today, is so far away from being cutting edge and Toyota coming back to the WRC will be just another flop. It's the European car makers that dominates motorsport today and will continue to do so.
When you think about it, when Subaru, Toyota and Mitsubishi were successful in WRC the cars were developed in Europe, so there is hope for the new Toyota project yet..Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeD
But that's a long time ago, and since then the whole Japanese philosofi of doing things, has led to a closed country who doesn't want inspiration from the outside world, but instead produce more diapers to old people than to children.Quote:
Originally Posted by RS
No doubt Toyota they have to develop in Europe to stand any chance of success, but they have to limit all japanese influence in running the team, which I think will be difficult. So I call yet another massive flop that will last 2 years before they pull out with yet another pathetic excuse.
Not long ago we all wanted more manufacturers in the WRC. Now when the 5th is coming (I count them all) why complain of things we don´t know a s**t about?
Let´s wish them all luck and that WRC gets more competition and more good young drivers to beat Sebs.
So no more whining about flops.
Agree completely. Armchair experts making judgements on dreams they've never been able to achieveQuote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
because we want manufacturers that at least will try and challenge the established order... we do not need suzuki and mini efforts. Makinen is a nobody as a team manager, his team was useless all these years, a laughing stock. And we all know Jukhis ways with drivers and teams...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
I think you mix up many things. You´ve already seen so much more testing from Toyota than from the Mini or Suzuki manus. Saying they are not trying, from what we´ve seen so far?Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
And judging out Mäkinen at this point can´t be done. And Jouhki - what´s his involvement, you say?
Jouhki has nothing to do with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
but somehow an unproven, untested nobody driver he manages got in the toyota team... hmmmmQuote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
Isn't it the whole purpose of being a manager to get a contract for your driver? Why it is so bad if your name happens to be Jouhki? And if you would have paid attention you might have noticed that the deal is with TMG not with Toyota.Quote:
Originally Posted by N.O.T
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonJippo
Why mess up the discussion with simple facts and reality? If you stick to simple facts like "what is the point of a manager" then how can poor little NOT continue to sit in his basement lab and seethe with jealousy and rage in frustration? It is important to him to sit in his basement lab and seethe with jealousy and rage in frustration...
And you come and calmly explain simple things he has no clue about and you can ruin everything he has accomplished in rally..
ei ei ei, bad Finn, :arrows:you go to bed and no Kossu for you tonight.
Tommi Mäkkinen as the manager of Toyotas return to WRC will be very good.
Tommi is thé driver with the best head for set up that WRC has ever seen. His philosophy is very correct, and this personal experience will be very important (something TMG would never have been able to produce.)
Tommi has also had great positive effect on other drivers, especially Petter Solberg, who owns a part of his WRC title to Tommi.
I have really high hopes for this, off cource it will be down to many factors (engineers, drivers, budget etc), but all inn all it could come very good indeed - good luck!
Eh, when the testing and set up of the rally car has been the job of team principal? In organization like WRC team there is couple of other things to do for a team principal, if the target is properly working team.
As seen on other newcomer teams (VW, Hyundai) it is possible to build up winning car without such a personal experienced ex-driver as a team principal and car developer.
A team is only as strong as its weakest link.
Of course it’s not the task for a team principal to set up the car for the drivers (whoever they will be) when the team is up and running but I think he can give his experience and opinions when the car is developed and before it’s homologated. After homologation there’s not much to do if something is basically wrong.
It's really just dawning on me that TMG have been testing a WRC car intensively all over Europe for 16 months - for absolutely nothing.
I did think back at the start of last year it all seemed a bit extreme ahead of 2017. Now it just seems utterly ludicrous. From what I can see all TMG will do on this new project is engine development work (confirmed by Tommi in Motorsport News). But for 2017 we have the different restrictor - more power, more torque. None of the drivers have contracts with Toyota Gazoo. I doubt any of the crew do either. It seems like the only hired 'official' people so far are Tommi and likely George Donaldson.
It just does not make one jot of sense and we're left with what looks like a well sorted, heavily tested, stillborn WRC car. Is there any chance at all that TMG could enter it into some rallies next year off their own back? Otherwise it will just be a Cologne museum piece, parked next to the TF110 which never raced, but was apparently going to be a Grand Prix winner.
TMG has previously stated that they have done this as a solo project with possibilities for selling to privateer teams. TMG is owned by Toyota, but is run very independently (like other Toyota-owned companies), and Mr. Toyoda has been very outspoken when it comes to him disliking the decissions TMG has made regarding the WRC-project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
And no, it is not an absolute need for a team manager to be able to test rally cars, but when You have a so brilliant "rally-head" as Tommi Mäkkinen, it is off cource a great benefit. He could be of real help to the engineers and the drivers.
Jost Capito is off cource a very good team manager, but its clearly he has some short comings regarding the management of drivers. Ogier is the best, near perfect, but Mikkelsen and Latvala has not showed more improvement than should be expected, and Capito has not had any answers when it comes to turning Latvalas fait from crash to victories - the drivers seems very much left to their own (and their own management). In a different sport, the team manager would have taken a much more pro active role in developing the athletes, hiring the right driver coaches, mental coaches etc, but in this aspect rallying as a whole has ha long way to go.
And if You want to beat Ogier, You have to start walking that route, or else it will be another 9 WRC titles by a French Seb... :)
Why would Jost Capito want to have more fighting between his drivers? I'd say his goal is to win manufacturers championship and to have all three drivers in the top 3 at the end of season. Making Mikkelsen and Latvala better he's risking that Ogier can start making more mistakes and losing manufacturer points. And when Ogier starts seeing that he's not crushing everybody like in the last 2 years he might start thinking about switching to a different car.
For me it seems pretty obvious (based on public info) that the performance of TMG's WRC Yaris has been carefully evaluated and Toyota is not happy with it. It might be ok but their target in the future is of course to beat VW.
As Mirek pointed out TMG's recent projects have not been huge successes so perfectly right thing to do is to try something completely new. I have no contacts to TMG but for me it seems that it's a little bit old-school R&D unit full of middle-aged men (after F1 project was ended). Why else would they say publicly that now they want to buid a young team and attract new talents etc.
The one thing I fear is that Tommi sets up Toyota's operations to Finland even if it's not an optimal solution. The whole thing is perfectly doable from Finland but it's really a serious effort (+money) that is needed to attract the best engineering talents from other WRC (+F1 etc) teams from Central Europe.
Maybe check out this great piece on TMG headquarters and the wealth of facilities they have. Say what you want about TMG's projects, but there is no chance that Tommi will be able to put together a factory which comes in any way close to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by vkangas
http://www.speedhunters.com/2014/09/...torsport-tour/
Have to admit I hadn't seen any reports of TMG looking to sell the Yaris WRC to privateers. Surely the window for that happening is closing fast.
I sure agree with you. I was a bit provocative with my comment. However fancy facilities can also be very misleading. Not so many success stories start inside big corporate buildings. Too much moving parts and processes to be agile. Usually what is needed is a quite small but exceptional team with all the decision power and enough resources (support personnel, facilities, machines etc). By building a new team of 100+ members Toyota is trying to do just that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi
Would bet quit a lot on it being Tommi himself driving the GT86, very Tommi and very Nose End First. Looks "slow", but very effective. Cool that they still work with the GT86 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaggelis27
Back in the days I interviewed Flavio Briattore, also on his view of Toyota not winning in F1. He laughed a bit and said that they gathered way to much data, and prioritized all data equal. This was at the time i believe Renault F1 was experimenting with weight distribution on the Santa Pod dragstrip etc. TMG is a very impressive outfit, but they have less success to show for than the facilities conveys. In every corporation it is important to have a very clear picture of where You are going, who is in charge of what, etc (communication I think its called), and the bigger the organisation the more important the clarity is.Quote:
Originally Posted by vkangas
In VW this works very well with a triangle of Jost Capito, FX and Ogier.
I hope Tommi Mäkinen can lead the way in the same manor.
One thing that will be beneficial is that he "grew up" in a very family-like team with Mitsubishi.
One thing that can be a challenge is Tommi being Finnish, and Finnish people doesn't have the reputation to be to outspoken, and especially when there is problems/challenges they often tend to step back in silent contemplation in stead of team communication.
I have had the pleasure of meeting Tommi, I even got to passanger him in the Evo 8 I had brought to Finland (which was a bit special since he was long in to his Subaru contract), and he is more outspoken than the typical Finn, but leading a big corporation with a Toyota WRC effort will be, will be a challenge.
I think he will do very well. The question will be if he can get the right drivers. A driver that would be very good for him is actually Neuville, all be it that he is in a slump. Neuville cand drive very effectively (Nose End First) when he has the right set up, is in the right mood, is not stressed etc, but he seems to have no clue how to get back in "the zone." Tommi could fix that. But that would mean that Neuville has to be open for input, and humble.
what do You think of the challenge in terms of logistics and international team based in Finland? we all know Makkinen is excellent driver, and probably will be good as wrc team manager, but it'll work more "globally"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
it would be nice GT86 for a wrc carQuote:
Originally Posted by Vaggelis27
is tommi in yaris???? :/
NOQuote:
Originally Posted by Vaggelis27
Tomi in racing shoes...
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/wm/vide...gt86-4x4-test/
seems he has still the rhythm
Team base in Finland:Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanvv
Pros:
- Can become very a tight nit group
- A lot of local rally knowledge
- A lot of test roads
- Many very clever Finns in computer industry (Nokia and others)
- Tommi (team manager) is on home soil, and whiten comfort zone
- Good local production of specialized parts (Nokia and more)
Cons:
- Can be difficult to attract foreigners
- Most locals speak poor English
- Further to go travel most rallies and tests outside Finland
- Difficult if there is a change of team manager in the future (less options if not successful)
But, a WRC effort is European no matter where You build You base.
Both the test team and the WRC team proper is on the road most of the year, and they do a lot of km ´s, so I personally don't think its travel distance that is the deciding factor.
To be able to have some very good test roads out the back door can be a huge benefit, that is an enormous luxury not common with European based teams. So the total km´s traveled including "day-to-day" testing can actually be quit similar if one takes this in to account. The important factor here is to find roads with different characters, and on both gravel, snow and tarmac.
Going with the gut feeling, I would suggest placing the team in Finland.
Going with a more objective frame of mind it would be strange not to use the TMG facilities.
A compromise would be to have the main base in Europe, and a satellite base in Finland.
What do I think will happen?
Toyoda has said that this is not going to be run from TMG, but from his own Gazoo Racing. Gazoo Racing Europe will be a "new" company, and I interpret that as this effort will be built from scratch. Japan, Europe, Finland? My best guess of right now is actually that it will be based in Finland, but I would like to hear more qualified guesses :)
What do You think StefanVV?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barreis
This is Nose End First-porn :)
So many nuances of well timed inputs, and a clear overall plan of the driving. And such a willingness to be slow in some parts of the corner to be fast overall. Text book :)
It will be interesting to see how they integrate the Japanese driver(s) into the programme. Another random element to this whole thing. Are they making an R5 car too? In addition to actually pulling everything together to make this work, they ideally need to also enter some WRC rounds next year to get some foundations.
if the decide to hand the project to tommi then it will just become a half arsed job with no potential like mini.
What do I think? Well in first place I think it'll be nice to have wrc team based in Finland, for a variety if You wish. I'm glad exactly Makkinen will be involved in this quest, he seem very balanced person as a driver, and probably will be very good team manager too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundefaret
For the testing roads I agree, base in Finland would be the closest to the best Rally roads in the world. I slightly remember some interview in the past with a Finnish driver answering why the Finns are the best drivers in the world, and he said just because we have all variety of Rally roads and weather conditions in Finland..... but that was probably at least 15 years ago and probably Makkinen was the driver.
I know nothing about Nokia electronics and Automotive industry, but they make excellent phones.
I think a German-Finnish base would be great choice using the already established facilities and Services in Germany and do the development & testing in Finland.
All-in-all I'm glad for Toyota making that decision, for me it seem TMG are little "burned out". Their last effort with WEC is turning into disaster very quickly this year, but for sure I don't know the reasons, it may have to do something with exactly this "reconstruction"?!?
The way some people on here are talking, you'd think the WEC effort had been an unmitigated disaster. They did actually win it last year (or did I imagine it).
However, something has happened, not just to the WEC programme, but other projects, which seem to have been pulled/ delayed.
As for drivers, they'll surprise everyone and pick a Finn and a French, plus a Japanese youngster....
Just for the record for WEC I was referring this year so far, I watch WEC races and I'm well aware what TMG achieved there. Sure I don't know what Mr. Toyoda plans are for the future about TMG so only guessing....Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
I think TMG have worked wonders so far in the WEC. They brought the programme forward early and the car was quickly winning races. They absolutely dominated last season with a much inferior budget and really should have won Le Mans.
Toyota have not given them anywhere near the funding that their VAG rivals have on tap and that has bitten them badly this year. I don't think they forgot how to build a good car. They just got out-developed. The weakest part of it is the Toyota engine which they didn't even build.
So I don't subscribe to the fact that they aren't a competent team. The biggest issue for them, and I fear this WRC project, stems from Japanese boardrooms.
AUDI don't have the same funding as before since Porsche came in, but that's little OT. In general yes, TMG has done much better in WEC than F1 effort....Quote:
Originally Posted by Simmi