Love it :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
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Love it :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
Apparently for not using the right BS when giving the team orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Hallelujah!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Give that man a biscuit!
Rightly or wrongly, team orders happen but if Ferrari were a bit more sensible, there would have been no fuss.
It's just that they made ... ... it ... ... so ... ... ... bloody ... ... ... obvious.
Confirm ... you ... understand ... this !!! ;)
...whilst carefully avoiding making any admission that might be usable in court.Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
One of the lines of defence used by Ferrari in the aftermath of Austria '02 was they had been open about what they were doing; they hadn't tried to hide anything. Well...yes...but...only because Rubens made the switch so obvious. History repeats itself because Rob and Felipe did the same job this time around.Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
It was implied and never explicit instructions.Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
Unless there is great proof there's a great difference when Massa is asked/forced to pull over and being informed that your team mate is quicker.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/moto...ne/8864978.stm
Quote:
The words "Fernando is faster than you" are sure to pass into Formula 1 legend, but I heard them from Ferrari around 20 laps before the infamous radio communication was given.
Immediately after the pit stops, I went into the Ferrari garage. The team's spokesman Luca Colajanni was talking to my colleague from RAI, Italy's main TV network. This is quite a common occurrence: Ferrari listen to RAI commentary during the race and there is always communication between team and broadcaster.
Once finished in Italian, I asked what the team were saying to the drivers and what the situation was. At that time, Felipe Massa was just starting to pull away from Fernando Alonso.
Colajanni said the race was progressing as normal, that the cars were running well, but then added "but as you can see, Fernando is faster".
This had been the case all weekend, as Alonso explained in the highly-charged post race press conference. Ferrari were only too well aware of this fact.
I went back to the McLaren garage next door to check on their progress, but could see quite a discussion taking place on the Ferrari pit wall. Team principal Stefano Domenicali was busy talking to chief engineer Chris Dyer. At one point, I saw Dyer put his hand up, with a flat palm. It was the kind of gesture policemen use to stop traffic.
Soon after, Massa pulled out a three-second gap on Alonso. The discussions continued. Massa's race engineer Rob Smedley was on the radio to Felipe every lap. At one point we heard him telling Felipe to concentrate. "The gap is three seconds, keep this going, and you can win", assured Smedley.
But Alonso closed the gap and the rest is history. There were more discussions between Domenicali, Dyer, Smedley and Alonso's engineer Andrea Stella during the five or so laps before lap 48, but once the move was made, all discussions stopped.
I believe Alonso would buckle down in the battle if he race against different teams, or driver other than Massa. What sprang to his mind if they made contact he's worried of Massa would attack him verbally and said Alonso did it on purpose again. That's not nice..Quote:
Originally Posted by skc
Alonso already gave some attempts, but Massa didn't seem to understand it. Alonso would better back off, try to understand Massa, make some gaps and get closer to show that in fact he is faster.
I understand the message he must go quicker, Massa misunderstood it.. ;)
Facts?Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
The fact is that Ferrari have been fined $100,000 for violating Article 39.1 of the sporting regulations. Stefano isn't going to appeal that decision. What facts are present that show that Fernando made an actual pass under normal racing conditions? None that I can find.
As for biases, I've considered myself borderline Tifosi for years, but not blinded due to the fact that I want to see at least half the field in strong competitive cars. I'd really rather see Kubica somehow bring the Renault past the field and win than anyone else this year, simply because I think all of the top teams have been idiots.
I simply prefer that racing be racing. I don't and have never liked team orders, but when they were legal they were legal and I accepted that. I think in a situation two drivers on the same team are racing, they should both respect the teams investment and do the best they can to not trash the cars. But at the end of the day I want the best driver/car combo to win the race.
If we are going to allow team orders, blatant or otherwise, then maybe we should just make F1 time trials. That way the fastest car wins. Or they could allow team orders again and remove the WDC from the equation. If it's a team effort, why call it an individual title?
I'm more than aware of the difficulty in passing in F1, but also aware of why I like seeing racing, and not rigged spectacles that insult the viewers with such blatant cheating.
So do you believe that since the 2002 "ban" this has been the first time team orders were used?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
If so, then you must be watching F1 through your McLaren factory-issued spectacles.
If you don't believe this, then why weren't the fans outraged at the other uses of team orders?
Dude, you might have had a great argument, indeed, even a winning argument, but for Ferrari blowing the bottom out of your boat.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......
or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself
First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that. :rolleyes:
Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):
Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face
Duh...... :rolleyes:
Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"
well double duh..... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.
reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"
She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"
He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....." :dozey:
She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docs
great postQuote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.
Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.
:s ailor: I think there is one facet of Ferrari's strategy that is either being ignored or posters are so set on crucifying Fred that it just hasn't occurred to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves,(most likely why Fred kept dropping his interval back, only to reel Felipe in with ease) and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... :s ailor: "bash on"
but that should not be an excuse to cheat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings.
I'm not a fan of team orders, but I understand them. Each day I walk into my job and I am handed team orders. They're not always fair, but I have the option to quit if I don't agree with them.
Additionally, most popular sports have team orders. A player who doesn't accept them will find himself on the bench or traded to another team that can deal with the problem.
Perhaps we have put F1 on a high pedestal, thinking that it is a "pure" sport in order to take us away from our real worlds every two weeks. Now the pedestal is cracking again. Each time we are frustrated by team orders being employed, another crack appears. For years, we have tried to patch over the cracks, but they still exist beneath the smooth surface we have tried to put on the pedestal. The 2002 ban was just another patch. We can disguise them, but they are still there. They always have been. They always will be.
F1 is not a "pure" sport, but a team sport and a business. As such, there will always be team orders of one kind or another no matter how much we deny they exist.
If you insist on following a sport without team orders, may I suggest golf or tennis...not doubles, of course! ;)
.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
:s ailor: I'm not advocating anything. I'm simply stating my opinion! An opinion the team may have made in it's own best interest. Not something Fred forced on them. Let's wait and see what the wmsc has to say about it!Quote:
Originally Posted by tazio
It's all relative actually. The end of the championship is closer for those with less points if you think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by truefan72
Most people are actually outraged not by the team orders but by the fact that it was too obvious and at the same time have a problem with the fact they behaved normally after the race. What should they do? Be ashamed? It was the best result for the team... well... perhaps except Massa but who's fault is that he woke up so late... I'm not even sure he actually has waken up yet... I haven't seen the race but from what I've read Vettel gave him quite a bit of help. It would have been a great mistake not to swap places and obvious or not no team order was issued... the BS they've used is just as good as anyone's.
That would be an ideal world but this is far from that. Teams are there to win championships. Alonso first and Massa second was the best result for Ferrari and they had the possibility to get it... so why not? Ferrari is fighting RBR and McLaren for the wdc and the wcc not Alonso. This is not McLaren. And everyone seem to foreget that Massa's performance this year was mediocre at best.Quote:
Originally Posted by airshifter
And speaking of McLaren what a hypocrite that Withmarsh is. He actually had the nerve to give the 2007 season as an example how they sacrificed a title to treat their drivers fairly. They've sacrificed it all right... by undermining the better driver.
It's all interesting but this is not a court of law...far from it. If they appeal they have a very good chance to get a bigger penalty. It's quite common not to appeal anything in f1.Quote:
Originally Posted by markabilly
The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.
F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.
The article is about Massa and 3* teamorders. the thing is that I´m not god at the german language.
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/f...s-1948929.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
I think you will find that the Stewards slapped them with the Maximum fine they could and also referred them to the WMSC.
If they wanted to appeal the fine, they couldn't do any worse.
BTW, did you write that you hadn't seen the race. That would answer a few questions, especially as you state that both drivers acted normally after the race. Nothing could be further from the truth!!!
I think people are missing the point here. There is a major difference between a hint and an order. Massa was never ordered to do anything.
By the same token, do you seriously think that Rob Smedley's words - delivered so deliberately and carefully - were merely a "hint"?Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Yes. No one could jump into the cockit of Massa's car mid rance and force him let Alonso past. Only Massa could make that decision in the end. Massa moved over for Alonso of his own choice, not Smedley's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I guess you and I have different understandings of what constitutes a "hint" as opposed to a flimsily disguised order. You cannot be that naive, surely, to think that Massa got out of the way through pure generosity to Alonso, sacrificing a win and in the process sending out a clear message that he'd given up on the drivers' championship.
Cycle racing. They compete as teams but the races results are counted for the individual riders. It's not uncommon in some teams to have two riders capable of winning overall or in a sprint. But then you have other riders in the team who's sole job it is to support the main riders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
Team orders are not only allowed but are a critical element of the strategy of getting their preferred rider to the finish first.
We both know that Massa moved over because he felt he had too. However, no one said Massa you have to move over or else...this is an order. They dropped a hint and he made up his own mind what to do about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
I have to confess a certain ignorance when it comes to cycle racing as I find it about as enjoyable as having my testicles slammed in a drawer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark
Nobody seems to get their panties in a bunch when team orders are used however.
Does cycling have a specific rule which clearly states that orders team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkmoon
I repeat - and I'm a little tired of repeating it - there is certainly a debate to be had whether the rule needs clarifying or abolishing; there are many posts here sympathetic to the idea that team orders are part and parcel of the sport. But the point remains that Ferrari signed up for the 2010 season knowing full well such orders were prohibited, then chose to break the rules.
"Ze Rulez are ze Rulez", repeateth der Brock for ze umpteenth mal :p
Massa: I voz only obeying ze orders! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by donKey jote
Aren't we dangerously close to violating Godwin's Law here ;)
We have FOTA and the Technical Working Group both able the influence the rules, so if they don't like team orders being banned they can lobby the FIA. But until such time as the rule is changed, obey it even if you don't agree with it.
Ha ha ha....i'd love to live in youir world of rainbows and unicorns where people are free to do whatever they want.Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
It says the team orders came after the third request from Alonso :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia 01
loosely translated:
1st came after the pit stop, but despite them almost touching, the team said no...
then he let the gap increase to 3.4 seconds, which made his engineer nervous:
"no probs, I'll get it back" said Alonso and he closed it again at will to prove he was faster... a slap in the face for Massa
when they were in convoy again, Massa waited till the third (I guess the one we heard) request before acting
the "well done, sorry" comments brought the stewards' response.
I've been thinking... who decides what to broadcast, Bernie?
The same Bernie who has just come out defending team orders?
Who's playing games with the fans?
:andrea: :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
And by the same token so is the reiteration and deliberation of 'saving fuel' at the Turkish GP and nobody complains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Brockman
It comes down to how good of a liar you are without looking like a kid with his hand caught in the cookie jar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazio
Perhaps Luca needs to figure out how they can break the seal and 'refresh" those engines....so no one needs to know, and would be perfectly within his announced philosophy on his website
Saint would say it is the natural law of justice.
Me, I think this rule is even dumber, far dumber, than the no team orders rule.
Its only justification is to save costs, yet top teams now spend millions on special parts to keep engine reliability up...and with no real testing, millions more on wind tunnels and computer work.....indeed Mac is able to run their simulator car in such a manner as to set up their race car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Actually this process is a recognized form of contractual arbitration, recognized and enforced by the courts under international law, that was agreed to when the teams signed off on the agreements involved in F1.Quote:
Originally Posted by eu
Someone like Ferrari or Flav must first exhusat all administrative remedies, then can go to a formal court of law for an appeal, but by law, the courts are required to uphold the adminstrative findings unless those findings (including the WMSC) are procured by fraud and bribery, along with totally lacking any support of any evidence, as in lacking even one percent of any arguable evidence.
ferrari has chopped its own head off....and not even "sew-it-back" can help
TRUE, VERY TRUE, but some have fussed.....including me.Quote:
Originally Posted by wedge
But now you are arguing that smeone else breaking a rule at a racce without getting caught means you are entitled to break the rule at another race
Right!! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by 555-04Q2
Why don't we all agree to disagree on this one. If 555 thinks he wasn't ordered over then that's his opinion and lets respect it.
We have a different opinion which is equally as valid.
Both can be right because he wasn't actually ordered to let Alonso through but the FIA and overwhelming majority of viewers believe the radio transmission was a coded order.
Lets move along?
Thank the lord the copper from Allo Allo was not the guy on the radio to Massa;
'Alonso is going to piss'
;)