2008 Rally New Zealand - official thread

There's some very naive forum members on here thats for sure. If it's in the regulations and they aren't being disqualified for it, then how exactly is it cheating?

Just because people cant comprehend a rally being won by anything other then a right foot. This type of thing always used to happen and I'm sure it will continue to happen again in the future. If I was a team principal and I'm dealt a duff set of regulations (thanks FIA) that penalises my driver for leading the rally, then I will try to gain back some of that advantage any way I can.

It isn't cheating, and if anything it adds extra talking points to the gravel rallies, where as last year a rally was usually dead in the water before Day 2 had even started.

So strategy, risk vs reward, chance and pure guess all work get thrown into the mix for us to talk about. Instead all people can do is be one-dimensional and cry about it.

Just because you feel cheated, doesn't mean they are cheating!

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Originally Posted by pettersolberg29

What I dont understand is why are people calling for Petter to retire?

Surely there are lots of drivers who should retire first because they're worse. Drivers like Wilson, Henning and Galli are worse, despite having an equal or better car, and recently Petter has been better than Atko as well, but no-ones calling for them to retire.

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Look at the podiums scored by Atkinson and P. Solberg this year, than you couldn't say that Petter is better than Atkinson. The Australian driver has also a lot more points and I shouldn't say Galli is a worse driver. Henning is driving for his pleasure, you can't compare him with his brother. We all know that Matthew Wilson is not good enough for the WRC.

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Originally Posted by Kamikaze

You must understand them, their God Loeb has done the same thing as the cheating Ford-Boys :rolleyes:
Hard for them.....

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Pffff

What lame debating skills!

You think I see Loeb as a god, because of a debate reagarding tactics? That's simply the most pathetic argument in here for a long time (And takes some beating)

I have never claimed that Ford cheats, because they have used tactics which are a part of the rule. But it's poor sportsmanship, and by starting to use that in a close championship they have forced Citroën to do the same.

Don't expect Citroën to sit back losing both championships by a small margin, because they wouldn't use the same tactics as Ford. Ford startet it and of course by doing so they force their nearest competitor to do the same.

If you don't get that, you never will.

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Originally Posted by ste898

I dont think so MikeD what I see is Loeb lovers only seeing what they want to see and slagging Ford off but not the cheating Citroens

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Exactly, if theese "nice livery" guys would have been following rally for some time they would know that in the past when the starting order rules was the same, all teams tryed to benefit from it, why would Citroen be different, and try to make it more difficult for them self?

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Originally Posted by ste898

I dont think so MikeD what I see is Loeb lovers only seeing what they want to see and slagging Ford off but not the cheating Citroens

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Malcolm, shouldn't you be busy running your team? :)

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Originally Posted by MikeD

But it's poor sportsmanship, and by starting to use that in a close championship they have forced Citroën to do the same.

Ford startet it and of course by doing so they force their nearest competitor to do the same.

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Let me resume.....

When Ford uses Tactics they are poor Sportsman.
When Citroen do the same, Ford was the reason that they do it.

Ford are always guilty :rolleyes:

Never heard so much B.S !

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Originally Posted by Kamikaze

Let me resume.....

When Ford uses Tactics they are poor Sportsman.
When Citroen do the same, Ford was the reason that they do it.

Ford are always guilty :rolleyes:

Never heard so much B.S !

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Pffff

Like I said, you just don't get it!

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Originally Posted by MikeD

Pffff

Like I said, you just don't get it!

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More Bull from the man from Denmark!!

Day 2 article and vids
http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/rall...latvala-leads/

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Originally Posted by c4

Day 2 article and vids
http://rallybuzz.stagetimes.com/rall...latvala-leads/

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Great website you got there. Keep up the good work :up:

some of my day 2 pics are up.

http://gallery.wrcfm.com/main.php?cm...008%2FDay+2%2F

all of SS8 and all of the WRCar's on SS11 (using the original stage names, not the revised WRC.com ones)

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I hate the FIA! If they dont change the rule for next year i wont follow any gravel events!
I dont know who's the idiot that though this year running order was a good idea, but the guy should be nailed to tommorow's front runner car bumper and use as a sweeper!

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I like and enjoy the new rules, far better then knowing your oponents times and drive acordinglly.

@Dingardo
have you got any fotos of Mason/Mason?

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Great website you got there. Keep up the good work :up:

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Thanks for that A.F.F. and I do intend to keep at it :D

Hmmm, I have to admit I didn't expect Loeb to play tactics, but still don't mind the outcome so far. There is great amount of risk involved in this kind of games, and nothing can be certan. I hope JML takes that one and make everyone think about it in the future.

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Originally Posted by ste898

More Bull from the man from Denmark!!

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Denmark, even more famous rally country than Greece :laugh:

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Originally Posted by COD

Denmark, even more famous rally country than Greece :laugh:

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No they are not....

Tommorow wiull be interesting day to see....with Latvala not having any racing lines to follow i don;t expect him to win, especially when the manyfacturer battle is also close...4 seconds i think its a small gap between Hirvonen and Loeb so i expect Loeb to be ahead by around 4-5 before the start of the repeated stages...certainly all leading crews must try to their limit and when this happens things hardly go smooth for all of them.

That's pure naivety to think Ford forced Citroen to do tactics. Citroen is shrewd winning team and they of course uses tactics when beneficial. At least if Loeb and Citroen had the position of Ford drivers (=underdogs) they would certainly use everything possible tactic. We know that Loeb even had unofficial crew from Citroen to searching stages in Finland few years ago. Citroen is far from sentimental "soft-boys-team".

Exactly right Finni - you dont become the best team in rallying without having a ruthless streak!

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Originally Posted by Finni

That's pure naivety to think Ford forced Citroen to do tactics. Citroen is shrewd winning team and they of course uses tactics when beneficial. At least if Loeb and Citroen had the position of Ford drivers (=underdogs) they would certainly use everything possible tactic. We know that Loeb even had unofficial crew from Citroen to searching stages in Finland few years ago. Citroen is far from sentimental "soft-boys-team".

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I'll say it again. No one is really whinging about the Ford Abu Scooby Dooby Doo team using tactics but about Wilson using cars from a satellite team as if they were part of his team. Team orders are fine. But using another team is not. Imagine the outcry if Ferrari got another team to impede McLaren or someone in a race or qualifying session?

Telling your own drivers to slow down is fine and well within the rules and I accept that even if I don't like it. But using Henning and Galli is something that should really be looked at. If Malcolm wants to run a 4 car team then he should. He shouldn't however use drivers from another supposedly independant team. You either have a 4 car team or two 2 car teams.... not both.

These rules have this year and in previous years made for some of the worst rallying ever. People will point to the margins the rallies are won by but it's all so artificial and carefully orchestrated that unless you're one of these people who just supports a team or a driver it's boring from a sporting point of view. It's not even clever..... F1 pit strategies can be clever but telling your drivers to fall back behind the leader so they get a better road position? Any 5 year old could work that one out.

Yes, Ford started using tactics, but if they hadn't are you ALL sure that citroen wouln't have started already (o would start eventually)??
It's part of the game, but blaming ford for starting it it's like little kids when they have fights: "he started it..." get over it.
One thing i still believe is that is not Loeb thats doing this, it's mr. Quesnel (or whatever) if seb won finland (fair and square) he would, by pure right foot, win Zealand without tactics, and he knows it.
The current system is better than the previous, but far from GOOD for the sport (go figure what the other was).
The way the time table looks, pont to be a citroen 1-2 come sunday at 3 pm.

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Originally Posted by A.F.F.

I don't believe this forum is cut in two districts, Ford- and Citroen lovers. There are fans of other manufactureres and us, who aren't basicly fans of any manufacturer, or equally support them all but therefore, couldn't care a rat's *** who started the tactics or who's to blame. What I do believe is that if only FIA could find a solution to this starting order issue we could all be happier.

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And amen to that too!

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Originally Posted by playmo

Yes, Ford started using tactics, but if they hadn't are you ALL sure that citroen wouln't have started already (o would start eventually)??
It's part of the game, but blaming ford for starting it it's like little kids when they have fights: "he started it..." get over it.
One thing i still believe is that is not Loeb thats doing this, it's mr. Quesnel (or whatever) if seb won finland (fair and square) he would, by pure right foot, win Zealand without tactics, and he knows it.
The current system is better than the previous, but far from GOOD for the sport (go figure what the other was).
The way the time table looks, pont to be a citroen 1-2 come sunday at 3 pm.

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NZ and Finland are very different events despite what people say. Fast and flowing is about all they share, New Zealand has far more camber to the corners and doesn't have nearly as many jumps either. Finland is also grippier too.

I mean, he's won the most demanding event, in front of quite some challenge (by the locals, of course) so he can win wherever (at this pont, with the current competition)

Oh my god I haven't follow the news since for a day and now it's even worse than before. I can't watch this anymore.

What makes me sad is that after all that slowing the people behind can't catch up.

Don't wanna continue all this negative trend, but...
That's the first overseas rally in many years that I don't follow on-line at night. I mean I used not to sleep during rallies Japan, Argentina or New Zealand, following the action lots of hours behind/in front of me, but this season... Well, I haven't seen a single stage "on-line" yet. And despite there're 4 people capable of winning the rally, It's not gonna happen tonight too.

I would like to see Richard Mason passing Villagra and Rautenbach tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I'll say it again. No one is really whinging about the Ford Abu Scooby Dooby Doo team using tactics but about Wilson using cars from a satellite team as if they were part of his team.

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Mike from denmark and Xsara fan implied that today's tactical game wouldn't have happened in pure and honest Citroen-world. Bad Ford team forced Citroen to do this. My response was for them.

By the way, If Citroen had satellite team and their situation would be difficult for fair racing (as in the case of Fords) they would do the same as Ford.

Some people could say that actually Loeb started tactics even before, in Mexico. But let's get over it and stop this useless fight :p no matter what do you think, they will still do it.

Teams are all the same. Everybody wants to win, and they use any possible way, fair or not.

I personally like these new rules because a lot of drivers are very close at the start of the third day for the win, while in the past I wasn't even following it anymore as it was cruise mode for almost everybody.

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Originally Posted by Helstar

Some people could say that actually Loeb started tactics even before, in Mexico. But let's get over it and stop this useless fight :p no matter what do you think, they will still do it.

Teams are all the same. Everybody wants to win, and they use any possible way, fair or not.

I personally like these new rules because a lot of drivers are very close at the start of the third day for the win, while in the past I wasn't even following it anymore as it was cruise mode for almost everybody.

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yeah... i see pro's and con's to the rules... i do agree... can't wait for day 3 tomarrow! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Daniel

I'll say it again. No one is really whinging about the Ford Abu Scooby Dooby Doo team using tactics but about Wilson using cars from a satellite team as if they were part of his team. Team orders are fine. But using another team is not. Imagine the outcry if Ferrari got another team to impede McLaren or someone in a race or qualifying session?

Telling your own drivers to slow down is fine and well within the rules and I accept that even if I don't like it. But using Henning and Galli is something that should really be looked at. If Malcolm wants to run a 4 car team then he should. He shouldn't however use drivers from another supposedly independant team. You either have a 4 car team or two 2 car teams.... not both.

These rules have this year and in previous years made for some of the worst rallying ever. People will point to the margins the rallies are won by but it's all so artificial and carefully orchestrated that unless you're one of these people who just supports a team or a driver it's boring from a sporting point of view. It's not even clever..... F1 pit strategies can be clever but telling your drivers to fall back behind the leader so they get a better road position? Any 5 year old could work that one out.

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Daniel wake up into the real world that is what the Stobart team is there for to SUPPORT the WORKS team and dont insult me by telling me that Citroen would'nt fo the same!!!

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Originally Posted by ste898

Daniel wake up into the real world that is what the Stobart team is there for to SUPPORT the WORKS team and dont insult me by telling me that Citroen would'nt fo the same!!!

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Truth is that they would love to do, but Aava and Rautenbach (in spite of all) aren't close to lead drivers so often :p !

Malcolm. In the past teams like Peugeot had teams with a few drivers to support the top drivers. Stobart is a totally different team. Perhaps Citroen might do the same but the thing is they haven't. That's like grouping murderers along with people who might just murder someone some day.

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Originally Posted by Helstar

Truth is that they would love to do, but Aava and Rautenbach (in spite of all) aren't close to lead drivers so often :p !

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and if they did that I would be just as critical of them.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

Malcolm. In the past teams like Peugeot had teams with a few drivers to support the top drivers. Stobart is a totally different team. Perhaps Citroen might do the same but the thing is they haven't. That's like grouping murderers along with people who might just murder someone some day.

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Stobarts is the Ford M2 team (Manufacturer 2) if you look in the service area it is run from the M-Sport trucks with same hospitality and yet you say it is a different team?
If Ford pull the plug then Stobarts could be the top Ford team!!!

It's not uncommon for a works team to run a program on behalf of another team. It's still a different team.

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Originally Posted by Daniel

and if they did that I would be just as critical of them.

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Oh yes, like Loeb today tactics. You would blame Ford as always ^^

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Originally Posted by Helstar

Oh yes, like Loeb today tactics. You would blame Ford as always ^^

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You don't get it do you? You said that if Aava and Rautencrash were good enough Citroen would do the same and I said IF they did I would be just as critical of them. So then you say "Like Loeb today tactics" which is absolutely nothing like what you were talking about before. Stop putting words in my mouth........ I don't accuse you of saying things you haven't and I'll be happy if you do the same for me thanks.....

Citroen have NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER used another team in their team orders to give their drivers an advantage in road position. Ford have and I don't like it at all! If Citroen did it I wouldn't like that at all. Thing is Citroen haven't done it yet and you'll just have to take my word on it.

One NZ related question - when does next stage begin?

In half an hour.