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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa
The 06 Focus was new, and the Xsara was still a proven winner so yes, designs improve. But the Impreza specifically got worse, and that was relative to its own earlier performance. Rather than blame a consistent factor like the motor why not consider what changed? And now we've both mentioned Prodrive's operations as being a cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor-y
Sorry this thread seems to be getting walled off from Mexico by a couple of Americans...
Jajaja...Quote:
Originally Posted by Gregor-y
I had a memory that the problems for Subaru started when the cars width was increased from 1770 mm to 1800 mm but that was already from the beginning of 2005 (http://juwra.com/rules_2005.html). But the Subaru 2006 season is documented so just watch and judge yourselves what was the reason.
https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...d+Rally+-+Part+
Regarding the Prodrive Subaru lack of performance, it has been discussed here before, but its multilayered:Quote:
Originally Posted by GravelBen
At the introduction of the WRC rules, Prodrive was definitely the company that pushed the boundaries. And from the start they had to work around the fact that the engine hung in front of the front axle.
But Prodrive Engineers - lead by David Lapworth - was a clever bunch, and they where in front of the other rally teams in most areas.
As an example, in 2003 Prodrive launched an active suspension, this was an answer to Peugeots active roll bar.
But as the WRC class progressed, there was introduced a larger number of limitations in the regulations, and Prodrive struggled to out-engineer the deficits in regards to car size, engine placing, bore etc. And the others got better.
On top of that there was a tire war.
Michelin introduced their "super tire", I think in 2005? And Pirelli was left for dead.
But Prodrive also made som tactical mistakes. David Richards dreamt of F1, and hired a lot of circuit engineers. In 2005 Prodrive introduced a car that had the rear wing fall of because the mounts wasnt "fit for rally." They had to slow down in water splashes because the car wasnt "fit for rally", and they had to run som extreme rake to get the car to steer, prob because of failing geometry. The BOS suspension was also a prob, but here I have heard unconfirmed rumours that the failing development was because they wern´t paid sufficiently by Prodrive.
On top of that the active front and rear diff was banned. And then came the S14....
The S14 has some major design flaws, both in geometry, but also around braking. Some one with better engineering capabilities than me can explain this better, but I think the Pedal box also was a structural integral part. Anyway, there was no feeling with the brakes (I remember talking to Petter after he first tested the S14, and he was would I would describe as in a state of panic, this was mainly because there was big problems in braking with no feeling.)
Had Prodrive/Subaru been competitive Subaru would never have pulled out, but their failing performance and their struggling star that was once "Mr. Hollywood", but became more and more negative, lead to them using the financial crisis of 2008 as an excuse.
Prodrive then countered with what I would say was an effort to cleance them selves of all charges (and maybe sell of the rest of the cars) by entering Marcus Grönholm in the 2009 Rally Portugal - on Öhlins suspension. He set some competitive times, but could not match his earlier stage winning speed, (second and third, second, 4th, 5th, 10th) and crashed out on SS8.
Prodrive/Subaru was a great chapter in the history of the WRC, but unfortunately it would all come to a bitter end.
With regards to engine location though - the production versions of the Xsara and Focus etc also had the engine hung out in front of the front axle, but the rules obviously permitted the engine to be moved in a way that was possible with their transverse engine but not the Subarus longitudinal engine?
I think that in WRC it was only angled backwards. Anyway with the transverse I4 engines it's a lot better because the engines are way shorter in X vehicle axis (in X dimension it's two cylinders with very large bore for boxer instead of just one with small bore for I4) and are placed partially upon the front axle while the boxer is long and sits all in front of the axle. The center of gravity of the transversal I4 is a lot closer to the front axle than of the boxer. With regards to the overall inertia of the vehicle it's good to remind that it grows with the square of distance from the rotation point therefore the distance is more important than the weight itself.
The reason I mentioned Subaru in the first place was the clear parallel to where Citroen seems to be atm (yes, based on only 2 rounds). Got quite a déjà vu feeling over the whole thing.
- top team slowly getting worse (Subaru with titles in 2001 and 2003, Citroen with titles up to 2012). First being slower than one car then the other (Subaru slower than Citroen, then slower than Ford; Citroen slower than VW then slower than Hyundai?)
- main driver inconsistent possible due to overdriving the car (Solberg / Meek)
- introduce a new car for catching up and that car does not deliver (S14 /C3 (so far))
=> Leave WRC when first "excuse" is available?
so, rally mexico? yeah.....
It's coming, don't worry.
This is what happens the thread is started so long before the rally and there is nothing else to talk about!Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
:vader: