Is There a God?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

A fair example would be going to war on the basis of a military assessment of a threat rather than 'because God told me to'.

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I was addressing the question to you asking about how you get your facts straight and how you come up with a certain line of reasoning to make the right decision. Do you imply then that you have something to do with the military or high level politics?

Speaking about wars, I tend to think most wars in 20th and 21st centuries were started based on perfectly rational thinking, rather than beliefs in supernatural forces. More often than not that kind of thinking let the political and military leaders down badly. Stalin thought he would easily crush Finland in 1939. Wrong. Britain and France thought they would easily contain Hitler in the same year. They were wrong. Hitler planned to defeat the Soviet Union in one campaign. Things went wrong for him. The U.S. thought Saddam had WMD (he didn't) and was a threat to neighbors (he wasn't after his 1991 defeat). The rest of the reasons that led the U.S. to the war in Iraq were perfectly rational. To sum it up, the "fact and reason" type of thinking performed slightly less than brilliantly. I believe it needs some improvement.

Continuing the topic, you might want to allocate some 90 minutes of your time and watch a BBC movie "In the Loop" that sheds some ironic light on the decision making process regarding going to war in the UK and the U.S.

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Originally Posted by Robinho

i too am quite offended by the thought that because i lack religous belief i lack the grounding to make moral or other decisions. I don't need religon to tell me not to kill, steal, discriminate or how to treat people generally. general common decency is plenty of a grounding, relying on someone elses "anchor points" just seems to be refusing to take personal responsibility for your actions or decisions imo.

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I can agree with you until one point. Because not all the values we based our lives on are argumentable. I reckon that exactly the cardinal values, those we don't get by education but by coutume, are unargumentable. We can demonstrate that living in a community require to obey the laws and things like stealing, cheating, lieing or killing are unacceptable. But what arguments do I have that I should be generous, respectful, warmhearted? And why should I love my neighbour as myself? Of course, you'll say it's common sense but while all of us will claim that education is good ( although its principles may vary), it's not undercurrent that such feelings are valid.
To the unargumentable values we can always ask a tumultous "why not?" as an expression of our freedom.
And let's not forget that each of us have different doses of unadmitable.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

To sum it up, the "fact and reason" type of thinking performed slightly less than brilliantly. I believe it needs some improvement.

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You are absolutely right. No decision making process is perfect. But all the examples you gave were cases of people looking at the situation and making a decision based on the cards they were dealt. The fact that they got wrong points to the fact that human beings are fallible, nothing more.

This type of reasoning is much better, in my opinion, than a leader making a decision based on 'God's will'. That kind of reasoning simply isn't rational and has lead to as much bloodshed, if not more, than 'fact-based' reasoning. Religious extremists have been using their religion as a moral anchor point to justify killing innocent people for centuries. Your kind of thinking needs much more than "some" improvement.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

I was addressing the question to you asking about how you get your facts straight and how you come up with a certain line of reasoning to make the right decision. Do you imply then that you have something to do with the military or high level politics?

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No, and I'm unsure of where you got any implication that I was, though I do have some knowledge of military matters and have worked in politics.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

The U.S. thought Saddam had WMD (he didn't) and was a threat to neighbors (he wasn't after his 1991 defeat). The rest of the reasons that led the U.S. to the war in Iraq were perfectly rational.

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Were they? Was the widespread belief amongst sections of the American populace that Saddam and Iraq had something to do with '9/11' rational? That belief did unquestionably exist, and it was patently nonsensical. And I believe there to have been a strong religious fervour behind George W. Bush's desire for a war with Iraq at any cost.

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Continuing the topic, you might want to allocate some 90 minutes of your time and watch a BBC movie "In the Loop" that sheds some ironic light on the decision making process regarding going to war in the UK and the U.S.

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I have already seen it.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

human beings are fallible

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Hey Hawkmoon, I really like this point of yours. You might want to try developing it in the right direction, if you see what I mean. ;) Extremists made the wrong conclusion from it, but you can get it right! I believe in you! C'mon, you can make it! ;)

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Were they? Was the widespread belief amongst sections of the American populace that Saddam and Iraq had something to do with '9/11' rational? That belief did unquestionably exist, and it was patently nonsensical. And I believe there to have been a strong religious fervour behind George W. Bush's desire for a war with Iraq at any cost.

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Sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't bubbas from the Bible Belt who made the call. It was D.C. politicians. Speaking within your own logical framework, do you have hard facts to prove they made their decision based on beliefs or religious fervour?

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Originally Posted by Alexamateo

Then knock-on said "I want my politicians to make decision based on reason, facts and logic, not some 'belief'. That scares me."

That is what I was responding to. If the person doesn't believe in anything, What are his reasons, facts and logic based on? What are they grounded in? When a person is an atheist, I don't know. That is all I intended. :)

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This is a fundamental difference that I hope we can discuss further.

My decisions are based on many things just as yours are. My upbringing, my family, experiences I have had whether good or bad. Morality and values I hold. These things are pertinent to me and go to make up who I am and what I 'believe' in. I can make mistakes, learn, feel compassion, hope, love, joy, despair and at no time will I have to go to 2nd hand information handed down by a 1800 year old book.

I find it strange nd a matter of concern that someone will not use all these factors and influences when making a decision and would rather resort to an out of date book instead. When someone says something is 'Gods will' or 'God is on our side' as grounds for making decisions rather than logic, facts and reason, then I get very jumpy.

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My apologies if I have offended anyone, it was never my intent. Forgive me for not being clear. Thank you Airshifter and Rollo for your excellent posts, I agree with them completely (well, except for the myopic part :p )

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Haven't offended my my friend. Anyone willing to discuss a subject openly will never offend me no matter if I fundamentally disagree with them. By discussing and debating, we lessen the chances of offence and conflict :)

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Hey Hawkmoon, I really like this point of yours. You might want to try developing it in the right direction, if you see what I mean. ;) Extremists made the wrong conclusion from it, but you can get it right! I believe in you! C'mon, you can make it! ;)

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And the right direction is the one that matches your opinion? Forgive me for being a little slow, it's getting late here in Australia, but what's your point?

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Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

Sorry to disappoint you, but it wasn't bubbas from the Bible Belt who made the call. It was D.C. politicians. Speaking within your own logical framework, do you have hard facts to prove they made their decision based on beliefs or religious fervour?

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With respect, you now seem to be falling into the trap of seeing things that aren't there. In referring to the many Americans who believed there was a link between Iraq and '9/11', I was clearly not saying it was they who made the decision. I was using it as an example of irrational thought flying in the face of facts. As for your question, it is impossible to say without questioning every one of them, but nor have I claimed that my view on their decision-making is anything other than my point of view.

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Originally Posted by Hawkmoon

And the right direction is the one that matches your opinion? Forgive me for being a little slow, it's getting late here in Australia, but what's your point?

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Admit somebody might know better than you, maybe the one who deals the cards.