For those who think Bush is the problem...read.

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Originally Posted by Kristjan

Ok. When you put it like that, I can understand it.

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I am laughing because most of the time, just about everyone else from Europe doesn't grasp it.

America isn't like any other country, including mine. It really isn't. The political culture and mindset of a large majority of its citizens continues on the tradition of what founded the country; that is a fervent desire for there to be as little government interference in the private lives of the citizens as possible. Now they have a President who will use the state to toss people in jail or fine them for not having health insurance. You have to know there is going to be vehment opposition and THAT is what you are seeing on your news.

The reality is, American's traditionally have required the citizen to be responsible to himself and his family first, and created a state that made this self reliance a must. It must have worked eh? Now people are trying to emulate Europe. Well as the Greek's are proving...that isn't such a great idea...

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Just because government doesn't make "profit", doesn't mean that you're not overpaying for services.

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Why's that? I don't think so. The taxes are just to cover the costs, not to make the shareholders and doctors rich. Salaries for example are lower in the public healthcare, as far as I know.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

As long as I'm getting good quality health care I'm willing to pay for it.

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Believe it or not, health care can be good quality also in the public sector. Besides, if the public sector don't have time or resources to take care of something, they'll buy services from the private sector and tax payers pay collectively the price gap so one person doesn't have to pay the whole bill.

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Originally Posted by Kristjan

Is health care in Canada, for example, of lower quality than in the US? I've read that Canadians spend about 10% of their GDP on health care each year, while the Americans spend about 15%. I don't know how accurate that is. But if it's true, it would strongly indicate that your existing way of administering health care was inefficient.

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In some areas, yes Canadian health care is worse. My brother-in-law is Canadian. He has a bad back. He had to lay flat on his back for 6 months waiting for surgury. The premier of one of the Provinces (can't remember which one off the top of my head) recently came down here for heart surgury. I'm sure Mark and our other northern friends can come up with a million more stories.

And I never said the system we have/had is/was perfect. No one would say that. But the bill recently passed did NOTHING to fix any of the inefficiencies. In fact it made most of them worse, and added more.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

Well as the Greek's are proving...that isn't such a great idea...

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Greece isn't the whole Europe. Iceland isn't the whole Europe either, but look where emulating American mindless capitalism took Iceland and their banks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2...nancial_crisis

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Originally Posted by Eki

Why's that? I don't think so. The taxes are just to cover the costs, not to make the shareholders and doctors rich. Salaries for example are lower in the public healthcare, as far as I know.

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So if you force doctors to take lower salaries, do you think that will improve the health care system?

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Originally Posted by Eki

Believe it or not, health care can be good quality also in the public sector. Besides, if the public sector don't have time or resources to take care of something, they'll buy services from the private sector and tax payers pay collectively the price gap so one person doesn't have to pay the whole bill.

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That is unless you have a system like Canada where there is no private option.

And why shouldn't one person pay the whole bill? I don't understand that. If someone truly can't work, I'm fine with helping them out. But we are WAAAAAAAY beyond helping out the truly needy in this country. I'm sorry, I probably sound like some heartless *******. But I've worked hard for what I have. Why should someone forceably take my hard earned property away from me just to give it to someone who doesn't have the desire to work?

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Originally Posted by Eki

That's like saying normal business relations and sexual relations are accomplished through intimidation just because the Mafia and rapists do it.

Contrary to your belief, normal diplomatic relations are based on mutual trust and mutual respect.

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What shows best that Vop has some form of mental disease or who knows maybe actual organic disease which affects his ability to think is this:
He posits that 'intimidation" is the way to "normal" diplomatic relations and presumably "respect" which he has stated is based on fear,

but he sees that his comments, invariably simplistic, and stupid, and pseudo-aggressive, are received by virtually all with derision, and disgust, and universal contempt---and he claims to be oblivious to it.

That's not cognitive dissonance, it's either some form of mental retardation or disease.

His "same people different flag" is so stupid, and so insulting that it should result in some sort of ban----if there were any kind of moderation around here.

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Originally Posted by Mark in Oshawa

America isn't like any other country, including mine. It really isn't. The political culture and mindset of a small minority of its citizens continues on the tradition of what founded the country; that is a fervent desire for there to be as little government interference in the private lives of the citizens as possible.
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Mindset is right, the problem is that minority screams so loud that some OUTSIDE observers are fooled into thinking that that is the norm, and they, and their foreign mouthpieces, ignore that ignorant minority's constant desires for Government Interference into the PRIVATE lives of all of the rest of the country who they don't agree with.
The selective and ignorant nature of the vocal minority's cries about "as little government interference" is excellently illustrated in the latest astro-turf campaign of the so called tea baggers to "keep the government out of my Medi-care" we saw so famously.

They want the "gubbymint" to leave them alone, but want the gubbymint to control everybody else.
Real American.....

The confusion of that "mindset" is illustrated well by one of their heroes who said so famously ""A mind is a terrible thing to waste," and said, "You take the UNCF model that what a waste it is to lose one's mind or not to have a mind is being very wasteful. How true that is."[13]"

(let's see if our beloved foreign defender and expert on all things American knows who said that....)

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Originally Posted by chuck34

That is unless you have a system like Canada where there is no private option.

And why shouldn't one person pay the whole bill? I don't understand that.

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Because for example cancer treatments can cost much more than an ordinary person can afford. There are also other expensive treatments not affordable to most people.