Tony George resigned

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You've all made me see the light. ** Tony George. ** the Speedway. ** the IRL. ** any Clabber Girl. I'll never have anything to do with the ***** Grandson again. ** the sport I love just to spite this one man. The CART boys were 100% right and they went bankrupt twice to prove that they were never at fault with anything. It's time for another white paper. Bring back Dan Gurney. Shoot TG in the head, he's a frigging idiot.

Crist people. Why is it that no one wants to see any fault anywhere except at TG's feet? I have never once said that TG doesn't bear responsibility for the state of AOWR. Can the same be said for some of you and CART?

I'm done with these thread. You all can go back over history with your FTG glasses on. I'll continue to look at histroy through my realistic glasses where BOTH CART and TG are at fault.

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Now just hold on here, Chuck. You're overreacting just a wee bit. As many of us have said, CART/Champ Car has plenty to answer for in the way things turned out. I've said that numorous times, and so have many other people. Most of us who were loyal to CART/CC were very excited to see The Three Amigos come in and rescue the series. But since they had it in their hands, they have made a mess of blunders themselves. The got rid of classic venues like Michigan, Fontana, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio in favor of some of the lamest street courses you could think of; through their ineptness they dissed Ford by favoring in a two seat Formula 1 car to showcase the field instead of all the cars Ford was bringing in as pace cars as part of their sponsorship agreement, in addition to the badging on the Cosworth engines; There was the ridiculous deal to put CC on Spike that went nowhere but down; and they couldn't promote the series to save their life. At the end, all they had was the racing which remained good for the most part. They finally brought in Tony Cotman to supervise the competition but it was too late.

But CART/Champ Car is gone. We now have to deal with the result of this conflict, and it starts and ends with Our Good Friend Tony George. He is the one who cast his "Vision" upon the sport, he will now have to deal with history's verdict.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Why is it that no one wants to see any fault anywhere except at TG's feet? I have never once said that TG doesn't bear responsibility for the state of AOWR. Can the same be said for some of you and CART?

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Yes, I have never said CART had no fault in the mess. I said the US 500 was a huge mistake, the IPO was another etc. etc.

But I also said it requires rose colored glasses to see the IRL today as CART II as you suggested.

Gary

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Originally Posted by chuck34

You know I've been thinking (I know that's dangerous). But all of you that keep talking about how TG killed "the sport" seem to be CART fans. Well if you look at it, things are now pretty simmilar to CART in '93. If there were just more chassis and engine combinations, it would be exact. So if you would look past your hatred, you'd see the sport you claim to love so much..

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The sport I loved was a lot more viable and virile in 94 than it is now. The tracks didn't include high banked ovals like Texas where no one can pass any more. There are similarities Chuck, but that too is an insult. Tony George had a lot more of my respect when he told everyone who would listen he was going to run an oval only series that would allow guys running Silver Crown's and midgets a way to get to Indy. He was talking about no road courses and giving all the American drivers a place to race. He had no plan to make any of that happen and the only American driver he really helped was Ed Carpenter.

The IRL of today is a shadow of what CART was....and the numbers of fans and viewers on TV reflects it.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

It is guys like me, guys that liked the original "vision" who's sport has been killed. We don't get to see guys coming from the midgets and sprints go to Indy. We don't get to see guys put together their own engines with their own little tricks to try and go faster than the other guy. Etc. Etc..

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Tony never understood the sport well enough to grasp that midget and sprint guys were not going to adapt to rear engined winged missles. They learn muscle memory and skills better adapted to NASCAR, which is why guys like Kasey Kahne and Clint Bowyer had no problem winning almost immediately. If they had tried to run an Indy Light or IRL car, they would have had a steep learning curve. Just like Allmendinger and Hornish are having steep learning curves in NASCAR. The fallacy that Tony was going to help these guys was a noble idea but it presupposed a good driver can adapt almost right away. VERY few can. Tony Stewart and maybe a Jeff Gordon could have gone from sprints to an Indy car, but Stewart is the best example. Most USAC sprint and midget guys cant or cannot be bothered.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Don't get me wrong I didn't like everything about the original "vision", nor did I like everything about CART. But I did watch, and enjoy, them both. Just as I enjoy (mostly) the current IRL. I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG, enjoy the sport they claim to love, and yes even point out some of the flaws. But to spout off about how you will never watch the IRL "until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies", is just foolish. At least if you are a fan of AOWR..

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I am with you on this one. I can watch the IRL now and have been watching it pretty steady all along (as much as I can watch any racing being on the road as often as I am) The thing is tho Chuck, the people pointing out what is wrong WANT a vital Indy Car series. Many of us may not have like Tony George, but I took a lot of heat 3 years ago advocating a merger and had been advocating it for about 3 years prior to that when it was clear Champ Car was not being run properly. I took nothing BUT heat but I wont sit there and say nice things that I don't see either. Today's IRL is a series that has potential, and some great drivers and teams, but the cars are dated, underpowered and too strictly controlled in terms of mods and aero tweaks. The result? Dull races on the ovals, and so-so to good races on the road courses. AT some point, there needs to be some serious marketing and serious innovation on the car side.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

Just my 2 cents worth. And I do realize my 2 cents is not worth much to many of you.

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Chuck, your 2 cents goes a lot farther with me than most. We happen to disagree but I think you are defensive of your fellow Hoosier there in Tony, and I have no such qualms. He didn't understand the dynamics of what he was messing with and now that he has learned, he is walking away with his money while the sport is a mess. Cant blame me and others for being ticked off about all of this.

CART may have had their faults, but you don't go to war over not getting "respect". You don't create a second series for OW racing when there isn't enough fans nor TV money to support both and you certainly do NOT create a series to protect the Indy 500 and the history of the sport when you have no idea of the market forces or dynamics of how drivers get rides, who pays the freight or the whole concept of negotiation as opposed to dictation.

Tell you what. If that 25/8 rule didn't exist in 96, if nothing else he would have seen a full field and all the history and love for the 500 would have never abated one iota. He did that to protect HIS series, the one that we have left now, but there was no reason to create it in the first place. THAT was his error. CART made lots of screwups post split, but most of there were a result of trying to make up for the fact they didn't have the 500 driving their TV package and their sponsors exposure.

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Originally Posted by Starter

In retrospect, the best thing CART could have done was to have shown up at Indy just as though it was a normal year. There is little doubt that most of the CART cars/drivers would have qualified well into the field. Then when a significant number of the faster qualifiers were denied starting spots because of 25-8 the sham would have been exposed around the world (Indy HAD a world wide presence then). The resulting furor may have ended the split right then and there.

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This is an excellent point, Starter. I admit, I never thought of it that way. Instead of matching egos, CART should have matched wits and come anyway in full force. Woody Allen once said something to the effect of "half the battle in life is showing up", maybe that is what should have happened. There were still a lot of Indy fans over in Europe and the reaction they might have had in addition to our own here in North America, such huge public pressure might have indeed stopped the war in its tracks (pun intended).

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Originally Posted by Chaparral66

This is an excellent point, Starter. I admit, I never thought of it that way. Instead of matching egos, CART should have matched wits and come anyway in full force. Woody Allen once said something to the effect of "half the battle in life is showing up", maybe that is what should have happened. There were still a lot of Indy fans over in Europe and the reaction they might have had in addition to our own here in North America, such huge public pressure might have indeed stopped the war in its tracks (pun intended).

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Sounds real easy in hind sight, but ignores the huge outlay of cash that would have been required.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

Sounds real easy in hind sight, but ignores the huge outlay of cash that would have been required.

Gary

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How so?

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

Gary

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I understand you, but that would have been a helluva lot less expensive than what CART/Champ car spent just to stay alive. And if public pressure was fierce, who knows, maybe TG could have been convinced to change policy on the spot so as not to piss off the fans and keep tradition. If that happened, I'll bet you Hoosiers to Buckeyes that the teams involved might have said it was worth it. And if it saved us the split fiasco, I'll bet you most everyone here might agree with that. I think it's safe to say that the fans would have had a huge impact had that scenario taken place. The fans lit up the joint during the F1 Michelin folly, I doubt this would have been any different.

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Originally Posted by Chaparral66

I understand you, but that would have been a helluva lot less expensive than what CART/Champ car spent just to stay alive. And if public pressure was fierce, who knows, maybe TG could have been convinced to change policy on the spot so as not to piss off the fans and keep tradition. If that happened, I'll bet you Hoosiers to Buckeyes that the teams involved might have said it was worth it. And if it saved us the split fiasco, I'll bet you most everyone here might agree with that. I think it's safe to say that the fans would have had a huge impact had that scenario taken place. The fans lit up the joint during the F1 Michelin folly, I doubt this would have been any different.

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In hindsight I agree, at the time I don't think anyone was willing to risk the money.

Gary

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Originally Posted by garyshell

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

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You forgot catering...