Ferrari/McLaren Espionage Story [merged]

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Originally Posted by Gannex

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex

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I don't know about the legal statement, but the rest shows you clearly as a real lawyer ;) :D

a sorry mess: i guess i'll go back into retirement.

I knew it, I just knew it. I always wanted to be a criminal lawyer, and this confirms it.

That hourly computing basis makes lawyer usually a man of means :(

Wouldn't it be a hoot if the documents were pieced together and sent by one of the Ferrari "shred-bag" clean-up guys? You know, stuff he pulled out instead of shredding or burning it. Better still, the stuff was sent by Ferrari but all the measurements are just a little off and all the data is just a little "fudged"?

so the poison pixie is forecasting what the fia are going to do regarding this affair.......according to him the McLaren drivers wont get penalised even if the team are found to be complicit in this spy scandal!!!!!......whats it got to do with him????.....and now coldturd gets a bit more media attention for himself by publicly declaring ron and McLaren are innocent!!!!.....how does HE know??????.....what has he got?....a crystal ball to see into the future????!!!!!........if ever midget man and coldturd have an opinion about anything then 9 times out of 10 it is the kiss of death!!!!!!!!....mate****s has signed dc for another year :( ((.......oh well, its his dosh!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Gannex

555.

Time devoted to:

Reading your post: 00:01
Arguing with my wife (also a lawyer) about the doctrine of "respondeat superior": 02:30
Researching reference to the Black Mountain case: 00:10
Replying to your post: 0:03

Total time devoted to this matter: 2hrs 44mins, call it 2:30 at $400/hr.

Please remit the sum of $1,000 by return.

(Please note that, because you are a long-standing client, I have charged only for my own time spent conferring with my wife.)

Thanking you,

Gannex

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Are we talking US Dollars or Zimbabwe Dollars :?: :D :p :

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

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totally agree with you there :) ..........if there is any delay betweeen the time these data discs were first shown amongst ANY McLaren employees to the time this fact was realised by a third party, then McLaren MUST know they dont have leg to stand on NOW!!!!!!!!!......it can only end in tears for poor Fernando and Lewis!!!!!............for Coughlan there is absolutely no excuse, and for Stepney we shall have to wait and see if it was him who has passed this information on to Coughlan!!!!.......but for sure there is only going to be a hardline approach from the fia(sco)..... :( ........look at the fuss over the "team orders" debacle from Monaco this year!!!!........that was a fart in a hurricane compared to this little tale of sabotage and espionage;.........and yet a part of me feels this could have all been instigated by Ferarri from the outset!!!!.........

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sword statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

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i`D LIKE EVERYONE TO READ YOUR POST AGAIN!!!!! :)

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Originally Posted by mstillhere

I don't want to sound like I am this genious or anything, but if we analize what papers are saying, this guy, Nigel, when nobody was around, walks towards the cars with a bag containing a mysterious powder in his hands. He dumps it in the tanks of these two cars, while is doing that, some of the powder falls around the cars and on the floor and after he's done...................HE DOES NOT CLEAN UP THE MESS????? How about leaving your business card behind? I am telling you, if he does not get arrested for damaging private property he should be arrested for STUPIDITY. That's quiete the plan. I want to sabotage these two cars but I'll leave some traces around, so that they can figure this out???????????????????? I don't get it.
OR if that's what really happend, they should arrest the Ferrari mechanics for stupidity, for seing this stuff around and not figuring it out. :) :) :)

PS Nigel Stepney has been notified by the SWA (Saboteur World Association) that he has been stripped of his membership and advised him to return/trash his online earned degree and get one from a real college. :) :)

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when the ferarri mechanics saw it they rolled up 500 lire notes and started sniffing away!!!!!!....he he he

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Originally Posted by wmcot

I'm really looking forward to tomorrow (or is it next Tuesday?) so we can get some real insight into this matter. It's interesting that Coughlan and "another" person were listed on the complaint. Who is this "other" person? Hopefully we'll find out tomorrow.

Personally, I think this whole thing was created by Jeremy Clarkson!!!!

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not clarkson!!!!.....that overgrown oaf only knows how to smash up caravans and chuck cars over cliffs or other such purile idiot pranks!!!!...hes a mess!!!.......if brains were dynamite he wouldn`t be able to blow his hat off!!!! :)

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Originally Posted by Racehound

when the ferarri mechanics saw it they rolled up 500 lire notes and started sniffing away!!!!!!....he he he

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I thought they were 50 euro notes :p :

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Originally Posted by Gannex

You refer, 555, to the doctrine of "respondeat superior" which holds that in certain cases the boss must answer for the screw-ups of his employee. But the doctrine is inapplicable where, as in this case, the employee is acting outside the legitimate scope of his authority. Robers v. Town of Black Mountain, 224 N.C. 119.

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Hope you haven't charged on a no win/no fee basis, because there is one major and fatal error in your case......

United States law does not apply in this case, whereas United Kingdom law does....to which I would like to draw the attention of the judge to The Queen vs Railtrack, 2002.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

I thought they were 50 euro notes :p :

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oh yes...i forgot about us now living in the United States of Europe!!!!....its all euros now aint it!!!!............anyway......the "mysterious powder" is gonna turn out to be flour!!!!!.....if stepney was allegedly trying to sabotage their cars it would surely only have been thru trying to clog up the fuel lines or pump.........a simple sabotage procedure that requires no major expense to rectify should it be discovered.....i mean.if hed stuck a few ball-bearings inside the engine he woulda had a big bill for the replacement motors had he been found out!!!!.......quite a few euros i suspect!!! :)

Nigel Stepney:

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"I'm ready to speak to Jean Todt and to president Montezemolo. I want to clear my position with Ferrari; I want to let everyone understand it's nothing to do with me. And I want to reveal some names of people inside Ferrari who had more interest than myself in doing what I'm unfairly accused of. I have nothing against the team and I could never have done such things. I repeat: it's a conspiracy."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

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"...if Ferrari have reached an agreement with Coughlan, it's because they think McLaren did not use that information in their car."

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

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Originally Posted by Racehound

oh yes...i forgot about us now living in the United States of Europe!!!!....its all euros now aint it!!!!............anyway......the "mysterious powder" is gonna turn out to be flour!!!!!.....if stepney was allegedly trying to sabotage their cars it would surely only have been thru trying to clog up the fuel lines or pump.........a simple sabotage procedure that requires no major expense to rectify should it be discovered.....i mean.if hed stuck a few ball-bearings inside the engine he woulda had a big bill for the replacement motors had he been found out!!!!.......quite a few euros i suspect!!! :)

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Or castor(castrol) sugar :p :

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Nigel Stepney:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

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I was right :) I was right all along - it was Elvis!! :D

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Nigel Stepney:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60886

Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

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now we're starting to get to the nitty gritty.

from what is being reported, it looks like McLaren are, as they have claimed all along, innocent in this matter and Ferrari have accepted it was a rougue individual.

I say "appears" but hopefully this will be confirmed soon.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

now we're starting to get to the nitty gritty.

from what is being reported, it looks like McLaren are, as they have claimed all along, innocent in this matter and Ferrari have accepted it was a rougue individual.

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Nitty Gritty? You must be joking.

I hope that for both Stepney & Mclaren's sake they have better defenses than that, because if that's the best they can come up with they are in trouble.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Nitty Gritty? You must be joking.

I hope that for both Stepney & Mclaren's sake they have better defenses than that, because if that's the best they can come up with they are in trouble.

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well, if Ferrari believe that they had nothing to do with it and a representitve of the FIA giving pre-disclosure that it looks like they are in the clear, then would McLaren have to put up a defence to NO CASE TO ANSWER.

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

well, if Ferrari believe that they had nothing to do with it and a representitve of the FIA giving pre-disclosure that it looks like they are in the clear, then would McLaren have to put up a defence to NO CASE TO ANSWER.

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Yes, but the key is how good that defence is. The Spanish FIA steward is in the same position as we are at the moment...he "thinks" but doesn't know.

Where is Monty Python when you need him?

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Originally Posted by Easy Drifter

Where is Monty Python when you need him?

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...in Ferrari's photocopy room.

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Originally Posted by tamburello

Yes, but the key is how good that defence is. The Spanish FIA steward is in the same position as we are at the moment...he "thinks" but doesn't know.

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and Joaquin Verdegay is a Fernando fan as well as his compatriot!!!!!....Verdegay is talking bo!!ackos coz he doesnt want to see Fernando chucked out while hes chasing his 3rd straight title, and neither do I.......i wanted to see FA win this year and shut a few people up when he overhauled Lewboy in the points!!!!!.....but that scenario is looking decidedly shaky at the moment from what i can see!!!!......stepney wants to name names to clear himself......ahhhh.....how very nice of him.......hes even admitted to emptying his pockets the idiot!!!!!!!!!....he shoulda said he was getting some money out or scratching his dick or something!!!!...anything else other than admit he was "emptying " his pockets of some "powder" that he didnt know where it came from!!!!!!!......Coughlans sworn affadavit allegedly states that John Neale and others at McLaren have seen the Ferarri "intellectual property"...........that means they are S-T-U-F-F-E-D!!!...Even if wRONg Dennis hasnt seen this material, the fact that it is in the posession of his chief designer leaves poor old wRONg up sh!t creek without a paddle!!!!! :( read the TIMES online and read what madmax has already stated as to whether the team and drivers can be seperated from each other as far as any sanctions or punishment is concerned!!!!)....old max is already lifting the hammer and if you read between the lines it is already clear he is maneuvering himself into a position whereby whatever punishment is meted out it will come as no surprise to ANY of us except McLaren!!!!!!....whether stepney and coughlan intended to pool their respective knowledge and take it to Honda at a later date is all pie in the sky; the FACT is that coughlan has been caught with Ferarris data and he is (was) a senior member of McLaren, so thats the situation max is looking at!!!!! for coughlan to put McLaren in such a compromising position after they were doing so well this season is complete madness and totally unforgivable imo!!!!!!....i hope they nail his nuts to the wall and watch him bleed to death!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the mans a moron!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Flat.tyres

well, if Ferrari believe that they had nothing to do with it and a representitve of the FIA giving pre-disclosure that it looks like they are in the clear, then would McLaren have to put up a defence to NO CASE TO ANSWER.

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flat....this is f1 youre talking about!!!!.....even if Ferarri thought McLaren were totally innocent of any wrongdoing, they wouldnt say so!!!!!!!!!!!!.....they would most likely INSIST that McLaren were involved anyway!!!!....and as for Verdegay and his "pre-disclosure", he is only giving his thoughts on the matter as it stands at the moment!!!.....its like poison pixie saying last week that FA and LH will not be docked points !!!!!.....ecclestone should stop shooting his mouth off about any verdicts or punishments dished out by the fia, because it is nothing to do with him!!!!!...he is not on the board of the fia, he is this supposed "supremo" we keep being told!!!!!!he runs the commercial side of FOA, and the FOM, tho hes supposedly sold most of his controlling interest to some consortium or other(i cant recall the name atm), but he obviously kept his foot in the door enough that we have to keep seeing and hearing the little creep!!!!!!!....as the championship stands at the moment, Ferarri would like nothing in the world MORE than to see their biggest rivals eliminated from this season!!!!!! at the end of the day it is all about winning!!!!.....2nd is first of the losers!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by wmcot

Why did it take them from March/April until July to take "appropriate" action????? That's my question. Coughlan admits showing the documents to several McLaren employees. Even if they didn't want anything to do with this, why did it take several months to suspend him and "cooperate fully" when they should have blown the whistle on him immediately if they wished to maintain their "integrity."

It is the delay in action that casts serious doubts on McLaren's statements of innocence and integrity. :(

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and this post needs reading again!!!!!!...... :) ...........so true!!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Hendersen

Looks like Mclaren is going to tighten their own noose. They are saying no one else was told about the documents at Mclaren, even though Coughlen already has a sworn statement saying that he did. They also have the problem about asking about rules clarifications for some things that seemed to be related to Ferrari design specs.

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exactly!!!!!......and wasnt it BEFORE the Australian gp that McLaren were requesting clarification on Ferarris "flexible floor".??????........max has already put 6 and 9 together and come up with 69!!!!!!! :dozey: ........i thought it was 15 but what do i know???!!!!............only Ferarri had this innovation on their 07 car, so how could McLaren be seeking clarification on a technical issue concerning a Ferarri before the first race of the season, when this design feature would have most likely imo still have been top secret!!!!!! i dont doubt for 1 second that wRONg is totally innocent , but it is coughlans actions that have undermined his team and put them in this ludicrous position... :eek:

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Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

[B]
Also, according to FIA steward Joaquin Verdegay:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/60887

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Again this ****head? Man, you completely ruined my day.

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Originally Posted by Racehound

and wasnt it BEFORE the Australian gp that McLaren were requesting clarification on Ferarris "flexible floor".??????...................only Ferarri had this innovation on their 07 car, so how could McLaren be seeking clarification on a technical issue concerning a Ferarri before the first race of the season, when this design feature would have most likely imo still have been top secret!!!!!!

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Look, I'm a big Ferrari fan so it may come as a surprise that I'm defending Mclaren, but......

It's not unusual for a team to protest, or in this case enquire as to the legality of, another teams car at the first race of the season.....

Ferrari did just that in 1998 with Mclaren's 4 pedal set-up.

Protesting the Ferrari floor doesn't prove anything.

It's highly likely that the FIA will not find any evidence of Mclaren using the Ferrari designs on their own car., but that is actually a side issue.......the real issue is how long did Mclaren's management know that Coughlan had the Ferrari designs before they suspended him.

If it really was a case of the Mclaren management only finding out on the morning they suspended him, then they are in the clear.

If, however, there was any sort of delay.....they are fecked.

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Originally Posted by ioan

Again this ****head? Man, you completely ruined my day.

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Still not over it that he was among the stewards at Monaco in '06 who stripped Schuey off his pole position?

If these guys are guilty, even under oath, do we honestly expect them to tell the truth? I expect that they will want to pass blame and drag others into it.

If they are innocent then I doubt we will get any sort of straight answer.

Whatever, it should be interesting :D

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Originally Posted by Racehound

............ for coughlan to put McLaren in such a compromising position after they were doing so well this season is complete madness and totally unforgivable imo!!!!!!....i hope they nail his nuts to the wall and watch him bleed to death!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the mans a moron!!!!!!!

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Man!! you are cruel!! :(
I hope you're not into M&M. :(

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Man!! you are cruel!! :(
I hope you're not into M&M. :(

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why thx Valve.......always nice to receive a compliment :) .......and i didnt even mention floppin his dick in a cup of bleach!!!!!.......nah.....more Carlos Santana....ac/dc.....pinkus floydus......eddie van halen......and lots of other sh!te.......... :cool: i play a bit o lead btw, so most of my music is pretty much axe orientated.... :s mokin:

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Originally Posted by Racehound

why thx Valve.......always nice to receive a compliment :) .......and i didnt even mention floppin his dick in a cup of bleach!!!!!.......nah.....more Carlos Santana....ac/dc.....pinkus floydus......eddie van halen......and lots of other sh!te.......... :cool: i play a bit o lead btw, so most of my music is pretty much axe orientated.... :s mokin:

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Look!! you want to torture the guy, play Bing Crosby!! :eek:

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Look!! you want to torture the guy, play Bing Crosby!! :eek:

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or Cliff Richard!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :dozey: ........cor ......hed be trying to kill himself for sure!!!!!!

Hey!! I like Cliff Richard :)
It is very interesting about Bing Crosby though - whenever large bunches of youths gathered outside a Mall and the Mall managers wanted them to move on, they would put on Bing Crosby and the cool dudes would move away very quickly. This is true!!

But the ultimate torture would have to be Nelson Eddie and Janette MacDonald singing Indian Love Call endlessly.

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

Hey!! I like Cliff Richard :)
It is very interesting about Bing Crosby though - whenever large bunches of youths gathered outside a Mall and the Mall managers wanted them to move on, they would put on Bing Crosby and the cool dudes would move away very quickly. This is true!!

But the ultimate torture would have to be Nelson Eddie and Janette MacDonald singing Indian Love Call endlessly.

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you are not going to believe this, but they did exactly the same thing here in the UK!!!!! :eek: with cliff richard songs!!!!....thats why i said it!!!!....they had a lot of youths hangin around a city centre, so the police tried an experiment playing cliff r and des o connor songs, and all the kids cleared off!!!! :) hmmm, methinx we are all lab rats to the governments in 1 way or another!!!! :s mokin:

Another interesting titbit: http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=32145
It seems that nobody in McLaren who Coughlan told about the documents wanted to see them or have anything to do with them. He was told to destroy them, which would have been the end of the whole sorry episode, the way I see it.

Now there are different opinions as to McLaren's culpability. Supposing if someone at boarding school came up to me and said he had cigarettes and would I want one, and I said No! I am not interested - just go and destroy them. Now without ever seeing them, could I be held to blame if I didn't go to the headmaster and tell him that Johnny Smokey had cigarettes? I might add that in my day, having cigarettes at a boarding school was more serious than Coughlan having Ferrari plans. :(

Yes!! I went to a Christian Brothers Boarding School. :(

The stupidest part, and something that will probably absolve McLaren is the fact that Coughlan sent his wife Trudy on that stupid errand to copy the documents at the local copy shop. It can easily be argued that if McLaren had used the plans in some way, they would have copied the documents themselves.

Now it remains to be revealed how Coughlan got to be in possession of the Ferrari plans.

Personally, I don't want McLaren to be thrown out of this competition - it would be like the repeat of Indianapolis 2005 all over again if they were. The biggest losers would be the fans - both Ferrari and McLaren fans, especially as I expect Kimi to win the WDC and Ferrari to win the WCC this year.

...............and here's Fernando's take on the whole saga. :http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,189...501428,00.html

Enjoy!!

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Originally Posted by Valve Bounce

The stupidest part, and something that will probably absolve McLaren is the fact that Coughlan sent his wife Trudy on that stupid errand to copy the documents at the local copy shop. It can easily be argued that if McLaren had used the plans in some way, they would have copied the documents themselves.

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Actually Valve, I don't think it does absolve McLaren. How do we know that Coughlan didn't make copies of the document for McLaren using the McLaren copier and then send Trudy down to the local Xerox Shop to make a copy for himself that he could take to his Honda meeting without McLaren's knowledge? If he's trying to jump ship to Honda I'm sure he doesn't want ol' Ron knowing about it.

Ah, conspiracy theories. Don't ya love 'em!