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Everybody's different, I know if I want the rally results, I look there. And if I want the championship standings, I look there. I never could distribute 116 points and calculate new standings of 10-20 drivers on the top of my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by becher
Yeah exactly, thank you! If people would read rulebook first this situation wouldn't happen. It's simple. You look at the changes and there is something that isn't clear to you? Try to find an answer in the rulebook. Didn't find the answer there? Then it's time to discuss, maybe someone else finds the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
But no, people rather jump to conclusions and even if someone actually links the answer in the rulebook, like you did WRCStan, many people here still ignores it lol.
Pickems 2024 will be interesting ;)
When you need to change the points system, you know there's a problem. I don't understand the problem with 'Sunday cruising'....it's a part of motorsport; nearing the finish of an event, if you're in a safe position, why not play it safe, and get to the finish.
The problem is a lack of top cars on the final day.......not the points system.
Yeah but we won't magically get more cars. There are much bigger changes needed for that, but we all know FIA won't make them... They didn't make them in last 25 years and won't make them anytime soon.
So it's at least some change that could make the race more atractive.
Rules need simplification and freedom, not the opposit.
3 days, minimum 100 km SS per day.
minimum ss km in total 300, max 400. Endurance perspective vs 3 x sprints.
points for 1-15 using same scale as in ERC: 30, 24, 21, 19, 17, 15, 13, 11, 9, 7, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 point(s). Reason easier to get sponsors with points in hand.
Powerstage gets own competition on last stage in every rally. Minimum ps length 10 km.
points given: 10, 7, 5, 3, 2, 1.
Same systems used for all championships in WRC, (wrc1, wrc2, wrc3),
.
Juniors: own rules for scoring and tyres
- Tyres free in wrc2 and 3.
- all season class winners named world champions WRC1, 2 and 3.
- system for small and large services during rally need to be adopted.
- notes confirmation crews allowed in wrc1-3 (gravel crews) reason; safety.
- Normal pump fuel mandatory in all classes. Reason, cost control.
new scoring system.
1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 30 24 21 19 17 15 13 11 9th 10th 11th 12th 13th 14th 15th 9 7 5 4 3 2 1
With respect to your opinions Andy, Sulland, others too; you are 'old farts' as somebody happily self-identified earlier in this thread. Your vision of WRC/rallying/motorsport isn't shared by the FIA and WRCPromoter.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
If you can't see the problems they see and only see problems they don't, and that they don't fix your observed problems is a problem of theirs; is this the series for you?
I think you are partially right.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
My impression is that the promotor does what they can to make the european sport rally, into something americans would like. Quick, compact and tv friendly.
But again they are americans, and they are not always logical, seen with european glasses.
So we're told the new potential audience for the WRC is young and has a short attention span, so the change that is made is the introduction of a points system that has to be studied if you have any chance of understanding it (kids love to study), when the new potential audience wouldn't even have been aware of the problem it was trying to solve...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
He was involved, no need for mocking. This change was discussed in Baku and then signed off by the task force (Richards and Reid). (https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/wrcs-...unday-driving/)Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
There are multiple potential other solutions to Sunday cruising and they chose one of the stupidest ones. There are issues with this solution besides "hurr durr people don't read":
a. the rally "winner" can go home with fewer points the someone finishing lower down. Even if by chance it doesn't happen it's still a stupid rule if it allows this in my opinion.
b. he final rally classification does not directly award points at all. Instead points are given by: an intermediate classification, a leg classification and a stage classification.
Who asked for this? I know there was Jonne Haltunen's interview where he suggested that the rally was over on Saturday and then Sunday are just two passes of the PS with points give for the total time and drivers suggested giving points for Sunday, or points for stage wins. Any of those suggestions would have been more straightforward and would have achieved the same goal. Instead perhaps this was a classic case of "not invented here" so they had to go out of their way to come up with something else. Complex rules are prone to having issues either by being exploited or by producing unintended consequences, while simple rules tend to be more robust. It's frustrating that while they did do something and personally I think will achieve the goal of reducing Sunday cruising, they did it in such a stupid way, like it was the result of a night of drinking in some bar in Baku.
Few study points, most of us will just accept the standings as read/told. Few hardcore fans watch Sunday's stages now. Ref Andy's point, switching off the cruising crews is no good for WRC Promoter. The problem they see is fewer eyeballs and engagement. Changing the points is a method to liven it up, thus increasing engagement. But there's more to it than this points system change why I ask this question. Sulland talks about a points system that is good for privateers' sponsors. FIA and Promoter do not give a flying fck about privateers. The idea WRC is a sport and they have duty to provide this service is detached from reality IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Then there is the usual topics that perpetually crop up. According to FIA and Promoter; 10 Rally1 cars is enough. 3 Manufacturers is enough. Rally2/+ will not replace Rally1. WRC is never going to be a privateer series. All these points that are raised here with the belief the FIA doesn't know what it is doing, that going back to the past is what is really required. 'Old farts' don't make reason out of what the FIA/Promoter is doing and is trying to achieve, just moan.
OK, the rally working group involving Richards and Reid was announced during the Baku meet. It will cover issues beyond WRC to grassroots rallying. https://www.fia.com/news/fia-statement-future-rallyingQuote:
Originally Posted by seb_sh
WMSC discusses and approves/rejects motions proposed to it, including all championship or discipline rules. They also approved the rule change at the Baku meet. No way the new working group invented and thrashed through this change, to propose it to the WMSC, to discuss, to vote on, within those days. After WMSC ratified the system change idea it said a WMSC Task Force was responsible for setting the points distribution. This may have involved Richards as a WMSC member, we don't know for sure. https://www.fia.com/news/wmsc-gather...-landmark-year
The proposal would likely have come from the WRC Commission, given it's a WRC regulation and not a general rallying rule and with so few manufacturers involved. Richards is not a member of these. There's also the WRC working groups, task forces and committees elsewhere, such as the meeting with drivers that Solberg chaired as Drivers Commission president. That was the meeting that had 80 ideas discussed, one of which is likely to be this points change.
Come to think of it, does Richards even have skin in the WRC game? He can't even be bothered to get a WRC round going as MSUK chief. It's possible he gets involved, he is on the senate I think, but I still think it's better to have some evidence.
I wouldn’t say I’m happy about having reached old-fart ageQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
Would you "reluctantly accept". :DQuote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Quote:
Originally Posted by HKSjbg
Mid thirties old fart here. If I'm too old to be relevant to their thinking, good luck to them and their new audience.
When I happen to watch touring car or GT races live on YT and there's a live chat (clearly mostly populated by a younger audience), I see much more often people complaining or being confused by the few not intuitive rules (for examples, the tons of different driver classes in GT World Challenge) than people complaining about the race being boring or predictable. Most people who approach motorsport to begin with, are mature enough to understand that not every race can be exciting until the end. Of course, if 90% of events in a championship are that way, then it's a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by the sniper
Seeing that there is so much confusion about the new rules for couple of days.. WRC/FIA should have already explained and made it clear.. but seems they don't care.
And with that ,,old-fart'' story... ah, better not. Young-manbuns.
PS 32yo.. but if rules that should be easy and simple to understand create such discussion in many guys tied to rallying, then there is something wrong.
More like ‘begrudgingly accept’. Maybe we’re just getting confused about the new rules because our minds are turning to mush :DQuote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
italian media did 23 vs 24 point system comparison on this year championship.
result is: nothing changes, except classification is shorter. Rovampera even got the same exact point of this year.
here their statement: "What would have changed by applying the new points scoring for the 2023 WRC season to the 2024 season? Practically NOTHING, except to have a shorter leaderboard, in the sense of reduced gaps at the end of the season.
As you can see from the simulation I did (barring errors and omissions of course) you can see how the FIA scores for the 2024 season have been drawn up. The simulations were done on Rovanpera, who in fact turns out to have the same final points with one scoring system or the other. The intention then was not to upset anything but to make the championship more tightly contested until the last race."
Attachment 2499
I made my own calculation just for first four rallies and what did I found?
1. Rovanperä and Ogier collected the same amount of points in Monte (26/26).
2. After Sweden, Tänak would not have been first on the road in Mexico, but he would have been third. (1. Rova 44 points, 2. Neuville 40 points, 3. Tänak 39 points).
3. After four rounds, classification would have looked like below. Note that Rovanperä who would have led according to 2024 rules by 6 points was actually trailing by 2 points and in position three. Note that Rovanperä had only one second place and three fourth places. So, basically with one podium you can lead the championship with some margin ;) That means, there is not so much point to fight for the win as it is not so much rewarded, if you finish near podium, it is fine..
New Old
Rovaperä 79 67
Evans 73 69
Neuville 73 58
Tänak 66 66
Ogier 70 69
Lappi 28 31
Katsuta 19 18
Sordo 18 17
Sunninen 0 0
Loubet 10 14
Breen 20 19
You can't retrospectively apply it, incentives and objectives change, like playing 'what if'. Ogier is best example of someone who pootles round completely disinterested after an early mistake or retirement. Give him a fresh Sunday he would change approach.
I dont think Ogier is interested in any Sunday short race, he wants to fight for overal win. Like he was not interested in fight for power stage points, I think he will be not interested in fight for Sunday points...Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
You're ignoring a pretty big factor here: Drivers in 2023 didn't drive to maximize their points under 2024 rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by wyler
This fact alone makes this comparison totally irrelevant
Thanks for the explanation, my mistake, I got it mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by WRCStan
So it means the worst is yet to come! :P
no it's not, you just have to get the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
first, is not me, i didn't write the article myself, just reported it.
anyway, i think it's very clear that the priority for drivers with new rules will be different, so, that part is for sure irrelevant -needless to say-, but is not the point. it's obvious you can't compare on that side, but you can compare on others. i think is interesting, as the article points out, that the new scoring system has been done looking for the same end result but shorter rankings as a base.
He'd do it for Toyota, these new points apply to manufacturers too. Won't sit back and rely on team mates.Quote:
Originally Posted by PLuto
Not in Monte. 10th victory is in sight..
No doubt victory in the plan but if he finds himself out of rally win contention on Saturday evening, you think he tells Toyota 'meh' when everybody starts at zero on Sunday and 2/3rds the max Saturday points are still to play for?Quote:
Originally Posted by TypeR
I have been showing my young cousing (15yo) some WRC highlights and coverage and social media etc over the last month. He watches Motocross and V8SC basically, but hes aware of Motorsport in general. I asked him what they shoud do to "IMPROVE" rally in his opinion.... He answered: "Ah, 3 days is way too much for me, man. Even the three separated day highlights are too much. If they had one full weekend highlights in 15 or 20 minutes, that would be gold. Otherwise, those cars are super rad. They should run them in Gymkhana format, where people can see them and cheer for the battles. Or have them racing one or two close stages only, where all the fans can gather and watch in one place. I would not go out there to watch ONE CAR passing each 3 minutos to have to walk kilometers to the next stage. No way"
I mean.......... Its a "youngster opinion". Thats not RALLYING, but MAYBE some promoter could bat an eye on that simple idea haha
Well, everyone is free to invent new sports.Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
Rallying is rallying, even if it dies out.
And don´t forget historic rallying. Maybe that´s the future? Back to square one... :) ;)
Next to show him rallycross?Quote:
Originally Posted by fiscorpun
But he wont like it, despite the fact that it's exactly what he described rally should be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Franky
This is why you never ask people feedback on things they have no clue about. They can't tell you what they want when they don't know it themeselves.
It sounds harsh, but there is actually some truth to this. Just look on what basis people judge if a consumer product is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kras
If you read what the cousin said carefully, he didn't complain about the format of the rally itself. He complained about the long review on tv. He would like a 15-20 minute review/highlights of the whole rally. At least that's what I understood, he wouldn't care if the cars did 2 stages or 20 as long as it would be a 15 minute video.
As for Gymkhana part, there are already super specials, there used to be more side by side type super specials. Also semi artificial sections with viewing spots exist on some rallies, maybe there could be more?
People love to come up with theories to make rallying popular to the younger generations. Maybe a big part of the problem and the solution is more in the TV studio. Also nowadays people are bombarded with information, perhaps a 15-20 minute review for a casual fan is a good idea.
It would help if they would focus more on social media and free content.
The shakedown live on Youtube is a good example. The paywall does not have to go entirely, but free content should me more available in widely used channels.
Also the previously mentioned shorter overviews would help to gain more viewers.
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There is no "the one and only" truth. Some like 100m sprints, others ultra marathons. Both are right.
Some like camping in the forest for a few days and watching passing rally cars, some like to watch donuts on a "miki mouse" city stage. Both are right.
It is not possible to be liked by everyone.
According to DH Moteurs, Munster will do a full season with the Puma Rally1..
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If that is indeed the case, this is really a very nice Christmas gift from Santa Claus Serderidis;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mousti
Just heard Fourmaux and Munster all rounds with third car possible to rent
This reminded me when you see people complaining that F1 should be "more like Indycar and F2" cuz "they have way better racing, 70% of the drivers get a podium, half of the grid wins at least one race"... Then, like... Mate why dont u watch Indycar and F2 instead of F1 then? hahah JeeezzQuote:
Originally Posted by Kras
"MotoGP is getting lame, British Super Bikes are the best" - Good, go watch BSB, not MotoGP then.
I mean, I probably said something like that too somewhere, but heeeyyyy Im watching the Australian Basketball League since 2021, not the NBA so... Good for me. No need to complain anymore about egos e boring games, Im just enjoying the games! BE THE CHANGE YOU WANT TO S... ah whatever, man