+1Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
(HJ 80/100 with 4.2 TD or V8 and Celica4wd/Supra is/was good ToyOta)
Printable View
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by cali
(HJ 80/100 with 4.2 TD or V8 and Celica4wd/Supra is/was good ToyOta)
I remember going from GrB to GrA in 1987.
First I thought this will be boooring. But lost interest? Nope.
And it wasn´t boring. Exciting as ever, and we all know what developments came out...
The change between 1987 and 1986 would be the same as going to R2/Rally4 cars for next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/t...an-fancy-cars/
This Tänak interview is weird. He says he wants to bring the costs down but isn't ready to let go of any of the things which make up the cost (engine, transmission, aero, performance) and still talks about adding hybrid and space frame or reducing weight, which won't be free...
No body likes change , that's normal but looking back as Rallyper says , the change from GrB to GrA was a dramatic one that kept evolving after that the next big one was from 2 liter to 1600 , change is always frowned on but it is usually for the better.
Group B to Group A was initially bad, but became great over the next couple of years. 1987 itself was pretty rubbish with the cars etc, but most of that was because of the sudden end to Group B, if 1987 had allowed Group B cars with reduced power/better safety and then gone Group A in 1988 it would have been a better transition with more decent cars ready to compete.Quote:
Originally Posted by satnav
From 2.0 to 1.6 I actually thought was better, the cars sounded better as they revved higher and they didn’t look any slower to watch. We only had Ford and Citroen anyway, so we didn’t lose any manufactures and by the end of that year the Mini was running, with Hyundai and VW in the wings...
I think others have said before on here, new regs are a good time for new companies to enter as they don’t have to compete against teams who have used the same regulations for some time already, everyone has learning to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
Agreed! Hopefully it will encourage more manufacturer interest too.
Shame that some 'fans' say they / others will walk away even before a reg change has taken effect. I guess it shows they aren't proper fans in the first place.
As long as something is being driven flat out through a forest, by the best in the world, I'll always be there with a grin on my face.
Tanak on the future...
https://www.dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/t...an-fancy-cars/
Hardcore fans who would watch anything might still watch ugly SUV's but not the general public who wont see any excitement in it. Therefore a big source of publicity will be lost.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
And electric is the next step and probably sooner than you think as hybrid is already 'old tech'.
Real fans have stuck with rally through thick and thin and rule changes, but ugly, silent, electric SUV's is more than a change from Gp B to Gp A or 2.0 to 1.6.
In other words you'll watch anything... great argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
The best in the world wont drive just 'anything' though. Ogier will be gone and Neuville has already said he's not happy with the new cars. Tanak also says no to WRC being R5-based...
Suzuki SX4 WRC (and Ignis S1600) was just like those "SUV" which are now coming.
I have never heard that someone has stopped watching rallies because of those Suzuki´s
I don´t care which models they are using.
To me I can watch Pumas or new SUV Yaris or whatelse brands come up with SUV. As long as they looks like rallycars and - SOUND like rallycars. With electric silence on the stages I maybe should start rethinking...
Can an SUV look like a rally car as we know them, especially on tarmac ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallyper
Yes, noise is at least 50% of the spectacle and I doubt it can be replicated well-enough artificially. Plus what would be the point in it. Maybe just to warn fans ? It's a big issue.
both versions of Ignis were cool to watch on the stages. Daniel Carlsson was great with that car (smaller version)Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Isn't the Mini Countryman an SUV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I would say Citroen C3 almost looks like SUV in street version...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Wow, teams will sure made cars that will look great. Even if they will be using SUV platforms. Accept it. It is coming. And with Hybrid too. I will be surely watching and I am happy to see positive rumours about Solberg and new team coming. I really hope so, they or anyone won't ruin it before it even starts.
What is this general public who follows rallying? It's a niche sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Also, not everyone follows rallying because they're car enthusiasts. You know how crazy I'm about rallying, but I don't even own a car!
I don't know how it's in other countries, but I would bet 75% of Rally Finland audience don't follow rallying at all except during Rally Finland. And there's a good percentage of those who pay the ticket but don't even follow the results, they just have a good party like going to a festival. They will sooner notice a change in beer brand served in Kakaristo rather than car models.
Yeah, the mythical 'casual fan' - who doesn't really exist. I remember a discussion on this years ago on Midweek Motorsport. Concentrate on your core support - if you gain extra fans, then good. But never alienate the core fans = bad move. Motorsport is niche - and rallying is even more of a niche in motorsport.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Hybrid IS the next step, not electric. The next regulations in rallying are simply not for EVs. Please do your homework.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Can you back up your claims that a 'big source of publicity Will be lost' or is that you simply speculating? Look at it this way, if you are correct and there is a big sector of the 'public' that are into rallying and it is them who are buying the road-going SUVs (because, lets face it, there's plenty getting sold) then why on earth wouldn't they want to watch them as rallycars??
I am saying I will watch whatever the rule makers deem to be the WRC car category (or whatever it is rebranded as). I think that's fair enough, as a rally fan. Shame you seem to be a fan, but can't support M-Sport using a Puma or whatever. Do you honestly think it's going to look crap and not be entertaining? It will be a full-spec rallycar, built by one of the best teams in the world and driven by the top drivers in the world... of course it's going to be spectacular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Sorry Eddie, but it shows your true colours when it comes to this sport if you are going to jump ship just because of a tiny bit of different bodywork. pathetic TBH.
And your argument about who will drive it doesn't have much weight behind it:
Ogier is (potentially) retiring at the end of this year, so the next gen being SUV is nothing to do with whether he will drive or not.
Neuville said 'he's not happy and Tanak 'says no'.... OK - jog on then boys and we'll have plenty of takers who can do the same job thanks. So no, I really don't see them talking away from their multi-million paid jobs, just because the regs aren't to their liking. They'll still be there.
I agree that Rallying is niche, but I think that it benefits from that as well, as it’s not circuit racing and offers something very different to everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
That appeals to both fans and competitors.
Everything gets measured against football which is unrealistic, in recent years I think the WRC has done a good job of working it’s own angles. It’s never again going to be a threat to F1 globally as it once was, and it’s not trying to be...
The biggest challenge to Motorsport as a whole is how it adapts to full electrification in line with car industry, Formula E has had decent success, but it is very slow and dull and if that doesn’t change soon the novelty will soon wear off to the public.
Biggest (OK - short term) challenge may well be adapting to living with Covid. Just thinking outside the box a bit here, but rallying may well be allowed to get going again sooner that a lot of other spectator sports, given the 'natural' social distancing the sport hosts already. If it can get up and running when other motorsports are working out how to run in front of a packed crowd, it may just do the sport some good.. Hopefully it will make up for all those 'fans' who jump ship because of a bit of a bodywork change.Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
Complete speculation of course, but the sport could really do with a little something right now (and that's before the Covid).
Yes, Covid is of course the short term challenge for everything, and I agree with you and have had the same conversation with my wife, that WRC might be in better position to get going with a crowd sooner due to the natural ability to social distance more easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
The biggest issue I suppose is that unlike a stadium or circuit, that can be closed and policed, a rally is very difficult stop people getting in if they really want to, so does that in itself prevent the events going ahead if they could have done behind closed doors?
I think in the case of WRGB, behind closed doors isn’t an option as they rely on ticket sales anyway.
I’m interested to see how Silverstone is going to be recompensed for running 1 or 2 Grand Prix behind closed doors should that happen, as it has the same issue, needs ticket sales.
I'm guessing that F1 will fund the Silverstone rounds? I'm still in two minds about how this will work... won't they need a huge amount of medical personnel to be present and can this be done without pulling from the NHS in the slightest? If there's the tiniest amount of bad publicity associated with using NHS staff for motorsport in the current situation, I can't see it going ahead. Saying that, I'd trade watching ten GPs to get to see a couple of rallies and a road race.Quote:
Originally Posted by doubled1978
The only casual fan I can think of is the one who sits in his living room on a weekend afternoon and opens the TV and sees rallying, and decides not to change the channel.Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyRAC
You're attitude is actually the pathetic one saying that you will accept and watch whatever they put out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
What sort of argument is that on the future of rally and what the fans want to see ? 'Err OK just do what you like and we'll put up with it'. How will that go down with the other fans who desperately want to see something that looks and sounds like a rally car ?
I'm not jumping ship you prat. I said the general public wont get into rallying if the cars are really ugly and sound shit. M-Sport or whoever will follow the (Ford) marketing and the engineers wont get a big say. Fans need to bring their views and put some pressure on.
The future of WRC is at stake here and rolling over and saying 'anything is fine by me' is no way to get what fans really want.
I presume they will have to, or at the very least waive the hosting fees as the F1 business model is based around the circuit owners making their money from ticket sales.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
I think they are basing their tentative plans around the virus being suppressed enough by then that their is enough capacity within the emergency services that the events can run. The premier league is having the same discussions, but for them they have to try and complete around 100 matches to finish the season, and to get through that without any infections sounds difficult to me.
WRGB has the advantage of being quite late in the year, so unless something goes terribly wrong with virus transmission, I would hope that it should be clear to run.
I enjoy F1, sportscars, GT’s etc as well as rallying, and I live a stones throw from Silverstone so I usually go and watch several events there through the year.
Here's a quote from a Focus ST forum I use...
DanJ1992
15 Apr 2020
As a big m-sport fan I really hope they dont make a switch to the Puma, its flippin horendous...
That settles it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I have my doubts that the wishes of the fans will have much impact on what the future of WRC looks like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
If Hyundai/Ford or whoever decide they what to compete with a car badged as Kona/Puma or whatever, they will and if we as fans then decide we don’t like that, and don’t watch, then they won’t compete at all.
I think with the announcement that they will keep the GRE engines, and the fact that the body panels will be able to be scaled to fit, will safeguard the sound and visuals in the most part. I think the WRC have been conscious that these factors are important to the WRC spectacle and have arranged the rules to facilitate this, while listening to the needs of the brands who want to promote their vehicles within the sport.
If the WRC starts demanding they only want sporty coupes or whatever then I think very quickly it’ll all be over.
But if the new cars are as still seriously fast and only in your opinion, sorry in your and Dan’s opinions, do they look crap, than what’s the issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
You should support your M-Sport team a Bit more, no matter what car the my choose to run.
Eddie, when was the last time you watched a current WRC car live?
You seem so determined that the appearance of a car is detrimental to the sport gaining more fans... what evidence have you based this theory on? (Please don’t tell me you did a poll with just you and Dan in the fast ford forum)?
Have you considered the series could change in other ways to attract more fans? Would be interesting to hear your conclusions if you have, rather than just hearing you whining all the time about probably a shape change of less than 10cm, especially when the thing goes past in a forest so quick that you haven’t a clue what it is, most of the time.... that is, if you do actually go and watch the sport.
Please, lets not get back into posting quotes from random nobodies from random forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
I'm open to the idea that the move towards mini SUVs does nothing to help the perception of the WRC amongst a potentially wider audience, particularly in places like the UK where a huge audience has been lost over the years. Here we definitely hear from lapsed fans bemoaning the move away from various things, be it Escorts, 'cars that look like ones in the showroom', Group B, Subarus & Evos, the lardy 2ltr WRC cars... Arguably all those people were already lost and dismissive of the current hatchback era, but that's where we are and it's been great. But at the end of the day, he who pays the piper calls the tune.
Personally in theory I'd really rather them not go to small SUVs (especially not large ones!), but I can see it not being too bad if they're (as I expect they would be) designed sympathetically with the scaling to de-SUV the appearance of them. As has been said, if a similar affect is achieved to the Mini Countryman and Suzuki SX4, it'll be fine. I can see the Puma lending itself particularly well to this, as it could just end up looking like a smaller focus.
Another advantage is that it'll add variety, which is what a lot of older fans complain is lacking compared to the good old days. It'd differentiate the classes. Rally 1 would be mainly mini-SUVs, maybe a Subaru saloon. Larger cars. Rally 2 would be for more production looking hatchbacks.
I´m one of those "older fans"
I like different cars.
So come on Eddie, a few questions unanswered...
Have you watched a current spec car live in a stage?
What data are you using to base your comments on regarding the general public not seeing any excitement in SUVs and therefore a big source of publicity being lost? Have you had access to a poll or something that draws these conclusions?
Also your insistence that 'the best in the world won't just drive anything'.. apart from Ogier leaving, which is definitely a planned retirement, which other drivers will be leaving when the new generation of cars come in?
It would be really good to hear what you have to say on the above as it might help to make your points on SUVs and the future of the sport easier to understand.
If the whole SUV thing is just your opinion, then that's cool, but you should maybe hold off making statements along the lines of it being something that will cause the series to lose fans if you have absolutely nothing to back it up (apart from a quote from Dan on the fast cars forum).
Guys, on a slightly different subject, have there been any more discussions to permit the homologation of rally vehicles by independent teams?
I quite like the current Suzuki Ignis and with a bit of scaling up on the wheelbase, as it is on the short side off the shelf, I would love to try my engineering skills in turning it into a proper rally car.Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Yes I've seen the current-spec cars running on Rally GB and as a member of the M-Sport Supporters Club I also had access behind the scenes at the SP. Chatting to many fellow Club member's it turned out that nearly all of us had a Fiesta ST, Focus ST or other high performance car. The fact that there was or had been a rally version of their car was a big thing to them. I never heard anyone say they have a boring SUV.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
From 2017 the crowds were absolutely huge - the biggest I can remember since the McRae/Burns days. But listening to them, clearly a lot weren't hardcore fans but they had turned out in numbers because they had seen and heard how spectacular the 2017 cars looked compared to the previous generation.
So it seems clear to me that it is vital for rally cars to look amazing, sound amazing, and be 'inspirational' in people wanting to dream of owning a fast car a bit like them.
The hot-hatchback has been a massive market here for years and I dont see a big change in appetite for many wanting the 'hot-SUV'. A hot-hatch is usually the dream car of the youngster for driving fun or the rally/racing enthusiast. Such people have with little requirement for a big, spacious car like an SUV. They dont dream of owning an SUV .
The recently-revealed Puma ST is going to have the same engine as the Fiesta ST. But how many buyers are going to want one instead of the Fiesta when it's looking like this, weighing more, costing more and driving worse, just because there'll be a WRC-version ?
https://cdn1.carbuyer.co.uk/sites/ca...?itok=BZ0TO3FZ
nice looking car
I don't like SUVs, I think they're an absolute blight on the roads.....however, I actually like the Puma ST, and could be tempted. I don't really want them in the WRC, in my view, they're more suitable for RallyRaid/ Dakar/Extreme-E type series. But, and if it means we get another 2-3 Manufacturers, then I think it's a price worth paying. The WRC desperately needs more than the current number of manufacturers.....and I'd really hope Ford will commit properly.