I don't se it as dangerous but for me it's simply ridiculous and stupid idea.
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I don't se it as dangerous but for me it's simply ridiculous and stupid idea.
How dare they have a rally out in the countryside instead of a city! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Why? They have to slow for a chicane. Chicanes seem to be riddles with problems. They have the same effect without the hassle, so what's the problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
So it's the mindset of slowing down for nothing instead of slowing down for an imaginerary physical object? I hope you all understand why chicanes are there in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
A physical chicane, in addition to bringing safety, adds something to the competition...you have to be nimble and presice. I would even prefer if there was compulsory tire change in that spot...something to remind a competition, but just stopping... .:D
Because with physical chicane You actually have to break to go through some given fixed object on the road and do that as fast as possible. It's not possible to do that with virtual chicane. You can't make them all brake on the same spot. How would that work? In my understanding You can get some signalization to slow down on certain speed but for that You need to give also some time window do so which means the virtual chicane is not a fixed obstacle but a variable one. It can work on very long boring straights but for what? There's no danger there. You usually need the chicane to be at some very dangerous spot but on such place You usually don't have the luxury to create a 100 meters long zone in which they need to slow down because You would need to give the signal for example in the middle of the turn which is of course bullshit and a dangerous one on top.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Also how do You give the crew the information that it slowed down enough? In a real chicane it's clear. You either pass clear or don't pass and You need some skill to do so. Nothing to argue about (with proper rules not those which are present in WRC). But with a virtual chicane? Would You give a sound or light signal that the braking was enough and they can accelerate again or how is that supposed to work? This is not an F1 where You simply activate a speed limiter for driving through boxes.
It's pretty simpleQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
https://youtu.be/b1Vw9BXDU24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
I think you’re over thinking it. Can’t see why they can’t all just drop to a certain speed within a certain marked area, for a specified distance.
e.g. they all have to drop to 30kph for fifty metres anywhere within a 100m zone.
Modern tech will play a part, no doubt about it.
Regarding their use, I’m not sure if they will play a part in reducing average stage times, slow crews in a particularly dangerous area or possibly both.
Either way, if it increases safety and reduces all the shit and shite that seems to go with a traditional chicane, I honestly can’t see why you or anyone are getting so worked up about it.
Fair enough, be silly enough to watch a stage at that point and you’re losing out, but otherwise... no problem.
So basically what I thougt, i.e. something You can hardly put in pacenotes (You know drivers in rally do drive on pacenotes), You need to watch some indication and You need to choose an area which is large enough to allow creation of slowing-down distance, i.e. it absolutely can not be used on all places where chicanes are placed now.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
For me this is useful only to slow down the average speed and not the trully dangerous places and that means it has little to no effect on safety.
On top of that it's completely silly to watch as pointed out already.
Isn't it much better to simply create clear rules for chicanes? It does work in some countries like here in CZ if the rules are clear and written black on white. The shit going on in WRC is only a result of non-existing rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
Organizers (like Campbell) probably have a very biased opinion on this, as virtual chicanes would be a much easier and cheaper way for them to follow safety guidelines.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
We should go back and take a look on why it’s said we need chicanes: a) they’re there to slow down cars in some risky spots; b) they’re there to make stages average speed lower.
In the first case we all know there will never be enough chicanes (physical or virtual) in place to make rally routes totally secure and accidents will continue to happen, even in places that no one thought were dangerous.
The second was already debated after 2017 Sweden and Finland events and the common acceptation is that lowering the average speed with chicanes doesn’t make the stages safer and the average speed limit isn’t by itself a reliable safety indicator.
So, like the current physical chicanes, virtual chicanes would hardly make stages safer but certainly would make the sport looking ridiculous. Let’s avoid it.
Isn't it much better to simply create clear rules for chicanes? It does work in some countries like here in CZ if the rules are clear and written black on white. The shit going on in WRC is only a result of non-existing rules.[/QUOTE]
Define better... easier? cheaper? I'm not sure, once the technology is in place it will be either.
I do take your point regarding it potentially causing a problem because of current chicane location versus where any 'slow-zones' would be activated, but I'm hoping the guys running the show at this top level would be able to find a safe solution.
Traditional chicanes: Haybale is cheap, it can be used everywhere and in addition to safety it gives you an element of competition, and demands skills.
Virtual chicane: Some area in a pointless place, where there is no need to limit the power and speed of a current generation WRC, that was made faster than previous one...for some reason, causes pointless mess in the car, no skills needed, and can cause pointless timeloss. Adds to safety= 0.
Why can you not put it in the pacenotes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
It's a fixed place probably marked with count down boards, a beginning and end with similar boards as the finish line ones so impossible to miss.
And this takes no space as long as the car is straight coming into the area you can pretty much put it anywhere, with a hay balle chicane you need a wide enough road to do it, and often it destroys the road edges.
If it is a road then there is room for a chicane, it could be tighter and slower, but for sure there is room. It could also be a barrel not a haybale or what ever-easy and light enough for one marshal to move back to its place.
I don't see that big problems with chicanes as they are now. The only problem I see is that a lot of them are rather useless (like the famous one in mexico). Just use a couple of haybales only in very long straights and put a couple of steward there that will quickly put them in place again in case someone hit them. I don't see any problem. Virtual chicanes to me seem just weird and ugly.
Or a tractor...Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
That said, please not virtual chicanes; it looks daft enough when trials/regularities do it.
They haven't found good solutions so far, what makes you think they will do it in the future? Quite naive to think top level is actually on a top thinking level...Quote:
Originally Posted by T16
So excessive amount different boards and signals is cheaper than 4 haybales in one place?Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Am I the only one on this forum who thinks Ogier/Citroen is the force to reckon next season?
the car is awesome on tarmac (maybe even the best) and they have made big steps with it also on gravel. Of course there is still some work to do, especially when the conditions are slippery. Also, Loeb showed us on all 3 occasions that you can be fast with this car.
They may struggle a little in the beginning of the season but Ogier coming with his knowledge from VW and M-sport and Lappi with his knowledge from Toyota, i think they can sort the issues rather sooner than later.
I think it's Tänak/ToyotaQuote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
You're not the only one.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Agreed, with Ostbergs performance, to me it proves with some tweaking it will be a weaponQuote:
Originally Posted by Hartusvuori
I believe in both combos Ogier/Citroen and Tänak/Toyota.
Neuville is not 2019 champion.
I would put it this way: if anyone's to beat the combination of Ogier and Citroen, it's Tänak and Toyota. Or the other way around ;)
I agree regarding Ogier/Citroen. The questions is - will Toyota manage to keep the momentum and improve further for next season? And even bigger question is - will Hyundai manage to up their pace?Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Nope. I think he will definitely be faster than this year and he still won the title this year. Scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by EstWRC
Yes, and it's a one time investment and a one man's job done in 5minQuote:
Originally Posted by cali
Does this mean every car attending a WRC event will have to have the device? Do they have to buy it, or will the rally organizer supply the unit for each competitor?Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Definitely it will be two horses race with Ogier & Tänak. Neuville, Latvala, Meeke & Lappi will fight for the 3rd place...
There are not only 12 works WRC cars but also up to 100 other cars which are different on each event and it absolutely has to work with all of them. It's not easy even with GPS to make it working for everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by SubaruNorway
Yes every everyone would need a RallySafe unit. No extra cost as all cars already have RallySafe units including support classesQuote:
Originally Posted by AnttiL
Unnecessary concern Mirek. Technology is already developed and well tested. System is already used at events in New Zealand, Australia and many other countriesQuote:
Originally Posted by Mirek
And as we know, technology and rallysafe (or any other timing service) work so flawlessly, especially in some unhabitated forest or mountain like we have seen this year and previous years. And we are back not making it actually safer...
I can't compare the systems but from my experience from ERC Barum rally there is always a certain number of competitors whose safety system doesn't work in scrutineering and there are technicians needed to deal with that (replace the unit or solve the issue in other way). It takes time even when in our case more than half of the competitors have the system installed already before the event (as they use the same one in the national championship).Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiWRCfan
I don't know how it works in NZ, but in WRC events RallySafe units were struggling from time to time. Loosing signal, cars disappearing from map or from timing, strange times, etc. Later in the season it was on acceptable level in general but not to take control of virtual chicanes/slow zones.
Non Manufacturer teams were able to buy their antenna/connection kits, units themselves each time were collected from the SAS and given back after the event. There were often problems to install the units as they are pretty big and heavy (as mounting needs to be solid and unit accessible for both crew members seated and tightened), also availability of kits with longer antenna wires or especially remote LED units was very, very limited.
In general all the features and possibilities were OK, I like it and it's big step forward from previous Spanish units, but it's not stable enough to control slow zones.
And Dutch version of the system is really weak...
Straw bales are useless. Why not build proper, heavy-duty chicanes that cant be pushed around ?
If driver's know they cant hit them without damaging their car they will treat them with respect.
The purpose of chicanes is not to destroy cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
i have seen metal shipping container being used here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
the goal of chicanes is not to hit them.Quote:
Originally Posted by kiil
It needs quite an impact to be moved ( 1m x 1m bale is 300-500 kg, quite a bit)...if it was fined with a 10 sec. penalty, then they would stay in one place most of the time... 1m3 IBC container is about the same size and over one ton.
It seems very accurate, not sure if it works on GPS position as that's pre programed in the unit, but they have the correct time to the tenth in the car just as they pass the finish line now i can hear from the co driver, before the co driver would give the time he had manually taken on the watch. So if that works in a tight forest having the same pre programmed line for the virtual chicane should also work fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop