Ogier?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
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Ogier?Quote:
Originally Posted by dimviii
Yes
Ummm.... I wouldn`t mind...:D
But to be serious, pretty much says what he thinks about c3 as a whole package...not good enough to be competitive on every event.
I take that as “I’m stayint with Ford or go to Hyundai”
I feel Ogier thinks he is lucky to win championship this year, and relucant to recommit. Also Malcolm said he cant afford to pay him the same for 2018 as 2017. Hyundai will pay whatever he wants.. because they are now desparate to win, and will not win WDC with him in another team. While he might want to join Citroen, maybe they cannot afford his demands, plus the clash with Abu Dhabi and Redbull. Why Tommi Makinen doesnt brake the bank for him, i dont know. The Toyota is a quick car on every surface.. and Ogier knows he can break Latvala.
All this previously by Ogier, 'I want to get my future sorted out early' ... it was just wishful thinking by him.
Contracts with several teams and undecided manufacturer's in the mix are complex. They inevitably take time and patience.
Something everyone on here needs to learn.
I never understand why Hyundai took Mikkelsen and let Ogier go to the competition. If Neuville would have been a problem then let him go, if you want to win the title you need Ogier not an arrogant boy who offend his teammates, believes himself as the best drivers around and win nothing at the end.
It could be that Ogier is afraid of Citroen developing on gravel and he wants to be reassured about Citroen's commitment on the development of the car in terms of resources and investments. I'm afraid Citroen doesn't want to invest too much on WRC and have quite limited budget.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Another reason could be the fact that he wants to develop the car the way he wants and maybe that requires more than a talk before closing the deal, since that would be disruptive for the team as is right now.
Like Ogier said, it's complicated and slow negotiating with multiple teams and with multiple factors in the game (Ford's decisions?, Red Bull / Abu Dhabi clashes?, FIA four car rules?).
Kalle Rovanperä has 3 options for 2018 and beyond:
M-Sport, Malcolm wants 3-years deal, Jouhki maybe doesn´t want to commit Kalle that long
Skoda, fastest R5 but what after that, WRC from where?
Toyota, gazoo junior program can offer him R5 car (Fabia or Fiesta) and he can test WRC, easiest team to work with and only 2km from home.
Any of those 3 would not surprise me as Kalle´s 2018 team.
Without any particular team bias I'd have thought Ogier will have just as good a chance of a 6th WDC by staying with M-Sport than going to Hyundai. Mikkelsen, Neuville, Paddon and Whoever sounds like a recipe for a 'who gets the sandpit in a kindergarten' fight. Meeke will be Meeke in the C3 and Toyota have what appears to be the team that has the philosophy from a Brit Comedy show, League of Gentlemen - 'This is a local shop for local people!'
The conditions that have occurred this year will remain, sometimes a driver will shine and others they will be disappointing. The real challenger would seem to be Tanak, so far better for Ogier to stay as his Team Leader and maintain the ultra consistency approach.
When was getting Ogier instead of Mikkelsen an option?Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
After Germany Mikkelsen was available and wanted to drive next rallies. Citroen let him go and Hyundai took him. While he certainly wanted a salary I guess it was quite a lot below Ogier-money.
- if Hyundai have the money they are likely still in talks with Ogier (rumors seem to suggest this)
- if they don't have this kind of money they could have passed on Mikkelsen (who might have ended somewhere else, or not) and waited if they can get Ogier "cheap" after Citroen and M-Sport didn't get him
Note that Citroen basically went for the second option, time will tell if that was clever. In any case for Citroen it wasn't Ogier or Mikkelsen, it's Mikkelsen for sure or maybe Ogier.
lol @ ToyotaQuote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
If M-Sport does not have money to keep developing the car Ogier's chances would diminish fast imo. Malcolm said it multiple times how they can't afford this next year without extra money.
But Ogier in Hyundai would be terrible for overall competition.
As for 2017 we can all agree that Ogier has the best and most reliable car.
How well would have he done in a Citroen, Toyota or Hyundai this year?
As for Toyota don’t let the barnyard Finnish workshop fool you. The design and engineering gone into their chassis is above others. It’s a Toyota backed program with all of of Toyota’s resources and not a privateer team with limited budget.
M-sport could fall behind if they have a limited budget. Toyota and Hyundai will continue to dump money into their program. They’re in it to win it. Citroen will also have a better car next year, but it seems like they’re are issues with a Red Bull / Ogier combo.
Latvala, Nueville, Tanak and even Meeke are capable of winning next year if the car fits their style. I almost think 2018 will be more interesting than 2017.
You have a point and that could be how things went but my question is still valid. If Hyundai is there to win the WRC, why they didn't pick the driver who would have assured that?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
The situation of other drivers, their lineup opinions, even the organization of budget (which I don't think is lower than other teams), all is secondary in my opinion.
Ogier would have accepted soon, they have a strong car, a strong organization, full backing from the company and they are based in Germany, which is good for him and his family.
So this year's drives in WRC2 with still no deal reached? is it only "test" drives?Quote:
Originally Posted by pantealex
Right, they have no further commitment. For getting just two rallies at the end of a season, M-Sport was the way to go. But for a longer term deal, there's other options.Quote:
Originally Posted by electroliquid
Kalle Rovanpera may be the next best thing but when did actually progressing through and WINNING lower international classes before progressing to WRC end as a career path? In the words of the little green guy - 'Much to learn has he still!'
Well he's not driving a WRC car in 2018 for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
Ogier wasn't exactly dominant this year, especially not in the mid-season with 5th place on Sardinia, 3rd place gifted in Poland after many retirements and 0 points from Finland.. going into Germany with same points as Neuville. Also comparison with Tanak is quite close.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
So hiring Ogier doesn't look like 100% guaranteed title and not hiring him like 100% no title. Looks like Toyota is not exactly going all-in for Ogier either.
Maybe it would do everyone a favour if Ogier retired. It would make all of the Teams' situation a whole lot simpler... ;)
Agree, isn't five enough? No doubting the man's talent, but let's give more youngsters seats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fast Eddie WRC
Here I don't agree. Yes Ogier wasn't as dominant as VW years this year but Hyundai would have had way more chances (real chances) to win the title with him. I think we all agree on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
He should stay for a few years. I think the competition and cars this year a lot better than the past. VW was dominating, but we have drivers and cars that are all capable of winning.
As mknight said a few posts above, Ogier was not exactly dominating this year. He did what a champ has to do, but Tanak, Nueville or Latvala could have also been winning WDC at this stage. Latvala with reliability issues, Tanak with some misfortunes and Nueville with a few silly mistakes that led to two 1st place finished gone with the wind. Next year isn't going to be a walk in the park for the champ.
Come on guys it never is a walk in the park but he is on another level. You can talk about unluck and misfortunes of others as much as you want but he is simply the best and everytime someone tried to catch him he ended up with less the 3 wheels on his car, tears in his eyes and dozens of points behind in the overall ranking.
Having him in your team is very close to have a garantee to win the WDC nowadays.
Almost the tin man, the scarecrow and the lion - Heart, head and nerve (i.e. Resolve) missing in some degree from all the challengers. Can't see that's going to suddenly be different (apart from Tanak appearing to have got his brain working this year). The car doesn't matter, Ogier is the superior talent at the moment and even if he doesn't dominate over 14 rallies he will always accumulate more points than anyone else!Quote:
Originally Posted by racerx1979
Think you are a bit blinded by the recent 2 good rallies. It certainly wasn't looking anywhere that good after weak performances in Sardinia and Poland and off in Finland. If he does not have competitive and reliable car steady finishes won't help him. The margins are really small.
Don't get me wrong, I agree that the combination of reliability and speed is significantly better than others, but it's not unbeatable. Not with all (or at least 3) cars competitive.
Yeeees. I'm not only one who thinks about that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bassist
Nandan said that the team are in talks with Ogier for future, but not for 2018 they have 4 drivers signed and have no available seat. 3 of their drivers have contract for 2018. Only Mikkelsen have also 2019.
And I hope they would not sign him. They can win without him. Toyota maybe is not interested in him because he turns them down once.
And whoever thinks that Hyundai can only win by him under the roof. If Latvala wouldn't have bad luck this year and Neuville mistakes he would have no chance. And I think that this is luck for him this year and please don't sa opposite because we all know that he is strugling much more than last year. Most of his good results are coming because of mistakes and misfortunes of others.
If there are 3 competitive cars with Meeke, Neuville, Mikkelsen, Tanak, Latvala and Lappi all capable of winning on any given day which of these drivers will put together enough second and third places to gain points where one driver is winning? Which of these drivers has ever indicated they can handle the pressure of expectation? Which of these will be so superior under all conditions that they will win more than 4 events in the season. Yes Ogier had a poor run (unusual for him) but was anyone really able to capitalise by being the dominant force at that time?
Tänak and Latvala have been very consistent and fast this year. If not so anxious for that Rally Poland win instead of 2. place, three cylinders in Monte (2.--->3.), overheating issues in Mexico, team error on Rally Sweden final day, that didn`t allow him to compete for vicory, failed PS win in Sweden, things would be quite nice for Tänak. Latvala would be also close if not for the mech. issues...Neuville lost his championship in Spain.
Neuville lost his championship on the Monte.... and by extension, Ogier won his!
What people appear to overlook is that where one of the challengers might have done well that would normally have been at the expense of other challengers, not the champ.
According to my calculations if Latvala had finished 1st in Finland, 2nd in Poland and 6th in Germany and Spain, scoring two PS points in each, he'd be trailing Ogier by 8 points. He's my number one title challenger for next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmop
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Umm, they all have "benefitted" from eachothers mistakes and that is part of (motor)sport. Ogier`s best examples are RMC, Sweden and Poland, in these cases he has won or claimed P3. Anyway, there`s a clear indicator now, that even 2 events before the end there is a mathemathical chance that Tänak or Neuville can get the title (yes, very slim, but it is there), whereas in last years things have been clear much before, that he is the champion...Spain 2016 for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
Tanak is going to Toyota should be announced in the coming days! Was told by a very reliable source on the way home from Spain this morning
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintexmemory
a) you assume that all 3 cars are capable of winning on any given day.. that is never really the case. Citroen and Hyundai for example were clearly incapable of winning in Finland. Toyota was clearly incapable of winning in Mexico etc..
b) as others did you can use Tanak in same car as reference and the difference is rather minimal this year
a) So the cars were not capable to win all events. That's right Guess who is the ONLY one capable to get 'the most out from each event?Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
b) A minimal difference means that the championship is decided 3 events before finish?
What I've been saying all along...Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelly
a) If "the most" for the car is 5-6th place in every event it doesn't matter much that the driver can achieve it in. Just after Finland people were writing Ogier off and Neuville was actually leading... and now Neuville gets two zeros and suddenly Ogier is the god almighty. I cheer on Ogier this year, but lets keep things real.Quote:
Originally Posted by AL14
b) 1 DNF (technical/crash) and suddenly it's not decided at all. Anyway the point is that Tanak in same car with 3 crashes and 2 rally wins is not far behind shows that Seb is beatable.
But clearly this is pointless cause you have decided who is the ONLY one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mknight
a) What championship have you watched? Ogier has always been the best, even after Finland to me. The "people" that were writing Ogier off are result oriented people and I am not among them . Ogier is not suddenly the god, he is dominating since 2013 and this year despite the difficulties has been capable to bring the car home getting the most from each event, contrary to his opponents that have not been able to do it. Like Neuville, that crashed in SSS while giving himself 80% to win championship. These are "real" things as well.
b) Ogier is human and beatable for sure but you said to keep things real and then you write an hypotesis. At the moment he is still the best. I hope Tanak will continue improving but he has to do it otherwise he is not yet at that level.
https://twitter.com/Becsywecsy/statu...44496078364672
Quote:
Is this the week for a driver announcement in #WRC? Eyes peeled everyone, I think something is expected ��
No doubt Ott has landed a huge contract but I'm surprised he agreed to this move so early. The deal has been done for a while now if the rumours are correct, which I find a bit strange considering everything Malcolm has done for him. Don't know why he couldn't have waited a month or two longer, even just up to Spain/Wales to give Malcolm every chance to get Ford back or a title sponsor.
I also hope this doesn't mirror Duvals move to Citroen from Ford, or Martin's move to Peugeot. Both went for the money and lure of a team with a bigger budget, but both found it very difficult adjusting to a new car and finding the same pace they had. Mikko moving to Citroen was a similar case and Jari to VW slightly less so, but he still lost quite a bit of his raw speed for the first year especially. Drivers do find it difficult after leaving Ford/ Msport, that's just a historical fact. I hope it will be different for Ott because no doubt this season has been a huge step forward for him, in every single aspect. He's been brilliant.
Surely with Martin being Tanaks mentor somewhat, they've talked this through - the positives and the negatives. Given Otts age, he's got time on his side and I would have recommended to stay at Msport for one more season - even without the huge finance (if Malcolm can't get anything sorted). It's *his* car and he'd go into next season as maybe a title favourite (especially if seb goes to Citroen). Now he's lost that advantage and drivers like Jari and Neuville will start next season in cars that they are used to, and have fine tuned to their driving style. Even worse for Ott's championship hopes would be Seb staying at Msport, and starting a new season in the same car and building on his already great form.
The big contract for multiple years, the lure of being part of a big manufacturer team, and being based in Finland/ Estonia obviously made it too hard to resist and i can clearly see why he decided to go for it, but I just think he could have waited another year for this move.
Stay at Msport and have a big go for the title, then next year if the development slows up or there's still no signs of extra budget, Ott would not only have the option of Toyota for 2019, but Citroen and Hyundai as well (considering both of those teams would have multiple drivers out of contract).
Let's hope he has no trouble adapting to the Yaris and continues his upward trajectory though, because there's no doubt he's capable of being a championship winner. He has the speed now on all surfaces and the consistency as well. Toyota have exceeded a lot of expectations this year and the car is fast, but is quite a bit behind the Fiesta in terms of reliability and being good on all surfaces - the Yaris needs a bit of work on rougher gravel rallies.
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