another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

A buddy of mine , in a kind of uncomfortable way , told me yesterday that the bushmaster was the rifle he was thinking of getting his wife for Christmas .
They are originally from North Carolina , and live here with thier daughter to be safe .

They live about five miles from me .

They hunt . I have some of the venison in my freezer .

For them , it isn't a feeling of overt oppression by a horribly restrictive government , but rather , a feeling of safety , due to still being armed , but in a society that doesn't condone weapons designed for killing humans .
They simply feel much less likely to greet a handgun on the street or at thier door .

We're redneck enough in my country to have had the government scrap a really expensive gun registry program due to public outcry . And , but for Quebec , all provinces have destroyed the records they did manage to compile .



Hell , I played "army" when I was a kid , and i was a ruthless foe , taking no prisoners .

And , there were a few "wackos" back then as well .

But , rarely were they so efficient . They didn't have the right tools .

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they have tried a full stop registry program in my state... expensive, ineffective and probably the largest argument was an unacceptable level of government intrusion.. They also tried to serialize ammunition.

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

It is at a gun club I'd like to point out.. Not at a shopping mall.

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Does it matter where it is - not really the correct environment for children, is it?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

Does it matter where it is - not really the correct environment for children, is it?

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Children learning about guns, their safe operation and use, is not a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

I'd never buy my wife a gun - it'd be the death of me!

It is a very confusing and, dare I say primative message that this thread has given me of the USA. It seems a little less extreme across the border in Canada, but the same mindset is there too.

Would there be the same public outcry now to a registry in light of recent events?

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Everybody has the freedom to have that "mindset" , certainly .
You can own a gun .

A gun gives one a real sense of power , and is a real thrill to shoot .
The higher the destructive power in your hands , the more thrill .

That's the reality of it .

I think you'd be surprised at how long the line-ups would be if there was a chance for the average Brit to try his/her hand at just firing an automatic weapon if there was a free day at a shooting range in downtown London .

The shooting range is the only place you can fire a handgun in Canada legally , unless you're a cop , and rifles are generally bought to suit the furry animal , rather than the naked ape .

I don't hunt , but , at one time , I was responsible for groundhog control on the farm .
They can be a wily foe , but the skill in placing the perfect shot where the earthpig tumbled down the hole , never to be seen again , became the object .
It was a job , and the rifle was the tool .
I was twelve , and capable of picking off animals two feet tall at long range with an open sight bolt action Win Cooey .22 . I was a twelve year old sniper .

I live in a place where I trust my neighbour , and he/she trusts me .

And , I don't own a gun .

So , maybe it is a "mindset" , but not a particularly paranoid one .

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Our country's freedom from a tyrannical government was earned through private possession of firearms ... a fact that was not lost by the writers of the constitution and the bill of rights of our country. One that was so important to our founders that is spelled out and guaranteed not to be infringed in the document that rules our country. That right is second only to the right to free expression.

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Would it be impolite to point out that it was the Brits which caused us to come to that conclusion in the first place? :D :D

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Originally Posted by Starter

Children learning about guns, their safe operation and use, is not a bad thing.

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Minors are not permitted in gun clubs around here :s

I started waterfowl hunting at 8 with a .410 shotgun. I can still drop a canvasback with one of those little hummers. I agree with Starter. Teaching firearm safety is a way of life in my environment, regardless of any public safety concerns. My son started hunting squirrels with me around 9. He's not keen on standing in 40 degree water hunting ducks, but I haven't been to the gun range in 3 years that he wasn't with me. He's a beast shooting clays with a .410. We eat everythign we kill. Haven't had to kill an intruder yet. I don't plan to aim to kill. I'm really not into the thought of having to eat a person ;)

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Originally Posted by Starter

Would it be impolite to point out that it was the Brits which caused us to come to that conclusion in the first place? :D :D

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Not in my opinion ;)

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Originally Posted by Starter

Would it be impolite to point out that it was the Brits which caused us to come to that conclusion in the first place? :D :D

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They were Brits, too. ;) Not me, though. I can't trace anyone in the US before 1850.

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Ethics is knowing the difference between what you have a right to do and what is right to do.
Justice Potter Stewart

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In the immediate wake of the massacre in Connecticut of twenty children aged six or seven years old as well as six members of the school's faculty, there were those, The Usual Suspects (those here and elsewhere), who began to instantly beat the drums about their "rights" under the Second Amendment to bear arms. Their tone-deafness and alligator tears would usually elicit a response that one had nothing but contempt for such folks, but in this case they are beneath contempt.

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

In the immediate wake of the massacre in Connecticut of twenty children aged six or seven years old as well as six members of the school's faculty, there were those, The Usual Suspects (those here and elsewhere), who began to instantly beat the drums about their "rights" under the Second Amendment to bear arms. Their tone-deafness and alligator tears would usually elicit a response that one had nothing but contempt for such folks, but in this case they are beneath contempt.

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Sorry to challenge the "facts" of that, but it was post #9 in this thread before you had the first defense of the right to bear arms.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Sorry to challenge the "facts" of that, but it was post #9 in this thread before you had the first defense of the right to bear arms.

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Post 9 of over 500........

Perspective is a little fuzzy too I fear.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Sorry to challenge the "facts" of that, but it was post #9 in this thread before you had the first defense of the right to bear arms.

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That it took all of NINE (9) posts for the whining to begin by the gun nuts....

Try bringing up passing government laws affecting religion and see how long it takes.

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Originally Posted by Gregor-y

They were Brits, too. ;) Not me, though. I can't trace anyone in the US before 1850.

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Not all of them were.

I got through 14 pages of this before skipping up here to the front of the queue. It's too bad that discussion here quickly deteriorated into attacks on American gun culture, then American culture in general, the "you people this" and "you people that," and, finally, the personal attacks--now going both ways--our own little metaphorical gun battle. No casualties, of course, but in some ways worse.

The issues surrounding the Connecticut massacre are mult-faceted, and many here are guilty of oversimplifying what is a complicated problem, too complicated to be approached with sweeping generalizations, cherry-picked data, and slippery slope logic.

Moreover, little or nothing can be solved by being rude. An argument, in the best academic sense (and this is an academic argument), is to broaden a topic, not narrow it--to develop respect for a position rather than defeat it. And some of us break rule #1 when arguing: establishing your credibility, not by simply being informed, but by being cordial, too. You may have terrific ideas but if you are rude, few will care.

Signed,
a non gun-owning American (but I'm 1/4 Filipino--mom came over on a boat in '52), who teaches in a high school (so this tragedy hits close to home), who wants a gun (the wifey isn't quite there yet), but also thinks stricter regulations on gun ownership is a wise concession

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Originally Posted by nigelred5

Try bringing up passing government laws affecting religion and see how long it takes.

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What, before someone is shot?

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

. . . .Signed,
a non gun-owning American (but I'm 1/4 Filipino--mom came over on a boat in '52), who teaches in a high school (so this tragedy hits close to home), who wants a gun (the wifey isn't quite there yet), but also thinks stricter regulations on gun ownership is a wise concession

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Hi keysersoze :)
I'm curious, do you wish to own a gun because of what has happened and you would be willing to take it to school if allowed?

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Originally Posted by SGWilko

What, before someone is shot?

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Less than 9 posts for the "whiners" to surface. ;)

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Originally Posted by race aficionado

Hi keysersoze :)
I'm curious, do you wish to own a gun because of what has happened and you would be willing to take it to school if allowed?

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Gun ownership has been a heated topic of discussion between my wife and I for a couple of months now, before all this transpired. My brother has a veritable arsenal--a Glock 19, two Kel-tec Sub2000s, and about 3-4 others. He took a 5-day shooting course and has a permit to carry. He's over-the-top, but even my 70 year-old mother has three handguns and a shotgun.

If I was approached my administration I would be interested in carrying a handgun at my school, with proper training, of course. I recognize that the possibility of an attack is remote, but we are vulnerable. Our school is a private one, but not in the best area of town. We have one armed security person on campus, and for many buildings one needs a swipe card to enter. On the other hand, the door to my classroom has a big window, opens inward and, therefore, cannot be barricaded. We have lockdown procedures but have never drilled it.

All I really want is a 9mm semi-automatic with a small-ish clip, 10 shots or so, enough to protect my wife and I in our home.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

A gun gives one a real sense of power , and is a real thrill to shoot .
The higher the destructive power in your hands , the more thrill .

That's the reality of it .

I think you'd be surprised at how long the line-ups would be if there was a chance for the average Brit to try his/her hand at just firing an automatic weapon if there was a free day at a shooting range in downtown London .

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I can well understand the enjoyment factor associated with shooting as a sport or pastime, and would never seek further to restrict that. But outside of the realm of sport I believe that 'sense of power' is, for want of a better phrase, misplaced. I for one have no desire for a 'sense of power' bestowed on me purely by virtue of how big a gun I own. Add in the manner in which guns have become part of normality for many Americans and I can well imagine how the combination has become toxic.

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Originally Posted by Bagwan

So , maybe it is a "mindset" , but not a particularly paranoid one .

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Looked at gun ownership in purely recreational terms, maybe not, but gun ownership for reasons of protection is surely born out of paranoia or deep societal problems.

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

If I was approached my administration I would be interested in carrying a handgun at my school, with proper training, of course. I recognize that the possibility of an attack is remote, but we are vulnerable. Our school is a private one, but not in the best area of town. We have one armed security person on campus, and for many buildings one needs a swipe card to enter. On the other hand, the door to my classroom has a big window, opens inward and, therefore, cannot be barricaded. We have lockdown procedures but have never drilled it.

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To look at this another way, are you not depressed by the need for such security measures? As I stated earlier, the very notion of their being necessary is simply laughable to Europeans.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Children learning about guns, their safe operation and use, is not a bad thing.

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I think it's an infinitely depressing thing. In no way do I feel I've missed out as a result of not learning about guns in school. What need do I have for such education?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

To look at this another way, are you not depressed by the need for such security measures? As I stated earlier, the very notion of their being necessary is simply laughable to Europeans.

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Depressed? No.It's lamentable, though. I feel quite safe. I'm sure Sandy Hook felt safe before last Friday. The odds of me or my students being hurt are clearly remote but, as I say that, I believe gun violence, with or without stricter regulations, will continue. I do sense the virtue of being perhaps a bit over-prepared.

I'm glad Europeans feel safe, and this country would do well to thoroughly consider what other countries do--and put the results in the proper context.

bÃ*i vi?t r?t chi ti?t.

vote cho bác 1 vé.








..

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

Depressed? No.It's lamentable, though. I feel quite safe. I'm sure Sandy Hook felt safe before last Friday. The odds of me or my students being hurt are clearly remote but, as I say that, I believe gun violence, with or without stricter regulations, will continue. I do sense the virtue of being perhaps a bit over-prepared.

I'm glad Europeans feel safe, and this country would do well to thoroughly consider what other countries do--and put the results in the proper context.

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I agree very much with your sentiments. However, do you not consider it potentially counter-productive to, potentially, perpetuate the feeling of insecurity amongst your students by way of such over-preparation?

I have felt for years that all school teachers should be armed. This would stop a lot of this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree very much with your sentiments. However, do you not consider it potentially counter-productive to, potentially, perpetuate the feeling of insecurity amongst your students by way of such over-preparation?

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Or perhaps the students will feel safer, just as they would if a uniformed policeman was in the classroom with them?

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree very much with your sentiments. However, do you not consider it potentially counter-productive to, potentially, perpetuate the feeling of insecurity amongst your students by way of such over-preparation?

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I have seen the light!! Thank you BDunnell. I finally understand, being prepared for something, however remote the chances of it happening are, will only instill feelings of insecurity. You're right! How could I have ever been so dumb?

Now to go home and remove all the smoke detectors and carbon monoxide detectors from my home. Rip out the seat belts from my car. Cancel all my insurance. Remove the warning labels off of everything that I own. And live the good life of not having any feelings of insecurity.

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Originally Posted by DanicaFan

I have felt for years that all school teachers should be armed. This would stop a lot of this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Starter

Or perhaps the students will feel safer, just as they would if a uniformed policeman was in the classroom with them?

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I wouldn't go that far. But having a uniformed police officer on school grounds would not be a bad idea at all.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

... In no way do I feel I've missed out as a result of not learning about guns in school. What need do I have for such education?

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Indeed, as a father of two it has never even dawned on me to feel the need to educate my two girls on firearms use. What possible benefit can that provide? :s

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree very much with your sentiments. However, do you not consider it potentially counter-productive to, potentially, perpetuate the feeling of insecurity amongst your students by way of such over-preparation?

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Students do get put out (just a bit) by our repeated fire drills (about one a month--I think it's mandated by the state), but I'm not advocating that we publicize our vigilance. Sort of like how the airlines have a undercover cop aboard all flights. We don't know who it is, but we all feel a bit safer. I do not think it's necessary to have school personnel openly carrying weapons. As I mentioned, we don't even practice our lock-down procedure. I feel safe in saying there will be no armed teachers here. I did, however, just return from a walk through the halls and saw a police officer--haven't seen that in a while.

I frankly think--though I don't have any anecdotal evidence--that our parents (a pretty well-off lot) would actually appreciate if security were beefed up. Nothing major--just make sure visitors obtain name tags, that the faculty always wear their name tags (sometimes we forget to put them on).

We have a drug-sniffing dog on campus once a month. When we instituted this practice late last school year, there were the usual rumblings, but now it's deemed as just "business as usual."

Large public schools across the nation have a significant police presence on campus, and have since the mid-90s. Some schools have their students enter through a gate that has a metal-detector.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I have seen the light!! ....

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No, I don't think you have. I think you have completely missed BDunnell's point. Perhaps re-read and reflect upon his post.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I can well understand the enjoyment factor associated with shooting as a sport or pastime, and would never seek further to restrict that. But outside of the realm of sport I believe that 'sense of power' is, for want of a better phrase, misplaced. I for one have no desire for a 'sense of power' bestowed on me purely by virtue of how big a gun I own. Add in the manner in which guns have become part of normality for many Americans and I can well imagine how the combination has become toxic.



Looked at gun ownership in purely recreational terms, maybe not, but gun ownership for reasons of protection is surely born out of paranoia or deep societal problems.

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I get no kick from champagne , but there was a big thrill at shooting a .36cal black powder handgun with a good charge in it .
It was a lot of smoke and a huge bang , and a big hole in the oil barrel I killed .

That barrel won't bother me ever again .

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Originally Posted by schmenke

No, I don't think you have. I think you have completely missed BDunnell's point. Perhaps re-read and reflect upon his post.

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Really? Tell me more ....

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Originally Posted by Starter

Or perhaps the students will feel safer, just as they would if a uniformed policeman was in the classroom with them?

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Will you perhaps explain why any such measures are necessary? Furthermore, would you advocate such steps being taken in all countries, and if not, why not?

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Originally Posted by schmenke

Indeed, as a father of two it has never even dawned on me to feel the need to educate my two girls on firearms use. What possible benefit can that provide? :s

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I'm not advocating that you allow your girls take firearms lessons, but I will respond to your question.

1) After shooting a handgun, one would definitely have a sense for how much respect a gun deserves, and would be less inclined to be careless, or be around others who are careless. Let me elaborate: recently I saw a news report of the young man who encountered the Oregon mall shooter who killed two shoppers before turning the gun on himself. This guy, in his early 20s, was formerly a mall security guard, and had a permit to carry. When he heard the shots, he pulled his gun and encountered the gunman trying to change his magazine. He had the shot, but refused to take it because there were people behind him and he knew the risks of pulling the trigger. Eventually, the gunman (who had an AR-type weapon) saw this guy with his handgun aimed at him, and decided to kill himself at that point. I saw this kid being interviewed. He was big and tough-seeming, but when asked questions by the interviewer you could see that his training made him very level-headed and a "big-picture" person. He seemed enormously aware of his surroundings and quite willing to not pull the trigger. In short, knowledge is power. Granted, he may be an exception.

My brother, who has significant training, guns out the wazoo, and a permit to carry, told me that if he heard shots ring out, he would not approach the gunman, that his goal would be to still try to get out of the area with his family. His training has enabled him to protect his own while calmly dealing with the situation.

2) If they are ever involved in a discussion of gun control (we engage in discussion over hot button topics almost every day), they could speak with more credibility--it's much easier to converse with someone who can actually get to the other side of the question, one who actually has experience.

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Originally Posted by chuck34

I have seen the light!! Thank you BDunnell. I finally understand, being prepared for something, however remote the chances of it happening are, will only instill feelings of insecurity. You're right! How could I have ever been so dumb?

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Oh come on. I'd have expected better from you. Are you seriously arguing that being exposed constantly to an environment in which heightened security is the norm has no effect? That increased security does not instil a sense of threat, and thus, in some, of fear? I consider it to be the first step on a very slippery slope.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

Will you perhaps explain why any such measures are necessary? Furthermore, would you advocate such steps being taken in all countries, and if not, why not?

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I would advocate that all countries do what is best for their individual circumstance, they know it far better than I. One size does not fit all. I wouldn't dream of telling them how to run their internal affairs. Hint, hint. ;)

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Originally Posted by keysersoze

Large public schools across the nation have a significant police presence on campus, and have since the mid-90s. Some schools have their students enter through a gate that has a metal-detector.

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I don't wish to repeat myself over and over again, but the thought of such things being the norm in Europe (I have no doubt that there are instances at some schools in Europe of heightened security, for certain, specific reasons) depresses me. Nor would it be necessary as a general measure.