2012 Presidential Race

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Originally Posted by Starter

We're talking about American politics, so the definition of "left" and "right" elsewhere is irrelevant.

To be blunt, who cares what anyone outside the US thinks about American politics. You don't live here and you don't have to share in the successes and failures of our political system. We're the ones who shoulder the largest consequences of our governments debts and adventures into other people's business - others only periferally so.

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And speaking of the total lack of ability to see concrete consequences of things...

Somebody with more patience and the ability to speak UN-intellectually want to explain to this guy how the interlinked intertwined world most sentient people live in means a stupid decision in one place may and often does have ripples all over the world...

Want to explain to him the share that hundreds of thousands of dead women and children and old people in those countries invaded by USA just for fun in recent years have had to shoulder as a result of the failures of our political system?


And how about the 2-3 or more million dead in SE Asia that shouldered the results of the failures of American political system?

Good gawd.

To be blunt, while he appears to write marginally better that WannabeDanica'sboy, there's little difference really.

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Originally Posted by Starter

I don't have any issue with intellectual pursuits. But that is not the end all, be all, of life. Many people work hard every day to provide a better life for their families and themselves. In many cases, that doesn't leave much time for "intellectual" pursuits. That does NOT mean they are stupid or unaware of what is going on around them.

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Which is the irony of where the current version of the Republican Party has moved on the political spectrum. At one end of the GOP are the plutocrats and their fellow travelers/enablers and at the other end many whose financial status is iffy at best and struggling at worst -- members of that "47%" that the other end of the party condemns. Because they work hard and wish to achieve a better life for themselves and their children, their focus is on the everyday grind of making ends meet. They are wage slaves, often supplementing their incomes with second jobs as well as often doing without. Relatively little of what the plutocrats have taken has trickled down to them. For the most part, real wages for workers have scarcely moved for over three decades. Yet, the percentage of income that has been vaccuumed up by those at the top has increased significantly, harking a a return to the robber barons of the past. In a non-zero sum game, the percentages are finite and they have shifted to the top and away from those at the bottom.

They are certainly not stupid or unaware of what is going on around them. They are, however, aware that there is more to life than being a wage slave. The idea of upward mobility in America has long been the bedrock for the general optimism that Americans hold about life, regardless of their political leanings. That it has been tinged with as much myth as reality is usually not openly alluded to, of course, failure often being attributed to personal failure to succeed rather than any acknowledgement that the deck might be stacked against someone. That some do succeed fuels the myth and takes us, collectively, off the hook.

Yes, it is a truth to suggest that intellectual pursuits are secondary to working hard to provide for both making ends meet and a better life for one's family. Yet, many do recognize that there is an intellectual component to life, one of the reasons that education is such an important element in the concept of upward mobility. Not so long ago it was not uncommon for there to be someone who was the first person in a family to graduate from high school or to attend college, or to be the first to to earn a college degree. To a large degree this is taken for granted today, although it should not be. This is another entire kettle of fish, but relevant to the larger discussion given that we still believe in an informed citizenry going to the polls as the best defense of democracy (which begs the question, of course, as to why the GOP is hard over on restricting the franchise, echoing its Southern roots in restricting access to the voting booth, which seems contradictory to a party constantly hammering the concept of personal freedom and rights, crying out against the "heavy hand" of government while cheerfully using that same heavy hand against others).

Elites exist. Not all are based upon things intellectual, but that is the usual connotation. That we have contradictory notions about elites -- they are just fine as long we belong to one, otherwise they are bad -- is to be expected given that there is an almost innate American suspicion regarding elites. Once, to simply have attended college automatically made one part of an elite. Similarly, having a graduate degree placed on in an elite. Being the member of the Marine Corps rifle team makes one the member of an elite -- an elite within an elite Marines would suggest. Being a jenny mechanic was once to belong to an elite. To make the cut for a sports team is to become a member of an elite. And, so on and on.

As "janvanvurpa" points out, there is an anti-intellectual trait in American life, political and otherwise. In the South, being an intellectual was not easy. The word itself was/is more often than not used prejoratively. Being smart was/is one thing, being an intellectual was/is something else entirely. That "janvanvurpa" suggests another irony, that of how abstract notions or beliefs are viewed, perhaps demonstrates the complexity of American life, political or otherwise.

The above must be one of the best posts I have ever seen on these forums.

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Originally Posted by Starter

To be blunt, who cares what anyone outside the US thinks about American politics. You don't live here and you don't have to share in the successes and failures of our political system. We're the ones who shoulder the largest consequences of our governments debts and adventures into other people's business - others only periferally so.

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Now that's elitism. And pretty much untrue to boot.

Elitism isn't so much a matter of intelligence as arrogance, and that is often is a result of ignorance.

Just look at what concerns in Greece are doing to the world these days. Nothing so big since Pythagoras figured out how to measure a triangle.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

It would be an empty person indeed who didn't want to better themselves intellectually, wouldn't it? I agree intellectual pursuits aren't for everyone, but this doesn't make it right for those on the 'non-intellectual' side to in any way be critical of intellectualism. How could anyone seriously argue that intelligence is a bad thing? In reverse, there is a legitimate argument to be made.

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In modern America, everything must be distilled down to a "bumpersticker" length so it can well, fit on a bumpersticker---and there's one that sums that up quite well:

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You think the cost of education is expensive?
Try ignorance.

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But alas mate, you simply do not understand the culture which really is in so many ways nearly purely a materialist culture..
Virtually no value is accorded to the use or even the attempt to use one's brains---unless there is a direct connection to that use generating more money/stuff.

Therein is a internal conflict in the society acculturated for several generations to be only value possession when it comes to politics---or policy..
They cannot think...they do not have the habit of analysis....
That's why we get these Internet Posters and "American politics doesn't affect you" type answers..

It's really appalling the change in 40 years too as Don Capps reminded us (that once one could discuss policy and actions and even ideas with Conservatives in a give and take manner and our Governments worked in a messy compromise agreement way).

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

But you're not comfortable discussing the politics of countries other than your own, though, are you? This is something common to many Americans, sometimes embarrassingly so, whereas there are many non-Americans very well-informed about American politics.

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This has very little to do with Americans in general, and alot to do with the USA's importance in the world stage.

It would have been the same in the Roman empire. Every territory that the Romans conquered would have come to know alot about the Romans, but the Romans wouldn't have cared too much about the inner workings of all these territories.

Another example. Maybe you live in the fictional town of Kleindorf, 50kms south of Berlin. I would say it's quite likely almost everybody in Kleindorf knows who the mayor of Berlin is, but it's also quite likely that alot of Berliners haven't even heard of Kleindorf.

"I say this with — genuinely — no wish to seem insulting, but" your posts often come across as quite arrogant.

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Originally Posted by Firstgear

This has very little to do with Americans in general, and alot to do with the USA's importance in the world stage.

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I would tend to argue that an individual's worldview, while undoubtedly influenced (as are all our psyches) by environmental factors, is their responsibility and theirs alone.

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Originally Posted by Firstgear

Another example. Maybe you live in the fictional town of Kleindorf, 50kms south of Berlin. I would say it's quite likely almost everybody in Kleindorf knows who the mayor of Berlin is, but it's also quite likely that alot of Berliners haven't even heard of Kleindorf.

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I don't think that not knowing about a small village is comparable with a lack of knowledge of world affairs. The former is not exactly general knowledge; the latter ought to be. From what you say, it's almost as if you feel the insularity of a certain section of the American population is in fact a positive thing.

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Originally Posted by Firstgear

"I say this with — genuinely — no wish to seem insulting, but" your posts often come across as quite arrogant.

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If that's how you see them, then fine. It's not my intention, but in a discussion such as this it is not exactly hard to adopt a tone some might feel is 'superior'.

2012 will be the 17th Presidential election that I have been around for, the 12th in which I will be voting. I can remember bits of pieces of the 1952 conventions and campaign, but the 1956 one was the first one I paid any real attention to, mainly because we were briefly back in the States and had access -- however fleetingly -- to television, which was still a novelty in Europe. My lasting memory of the 1964 election is the long line of voters waiting to cast their votes at a precinct in Columbia -- men and women almost all voting for the first time because they had previously been denied the right to vote in South Carolina solely on the basis of the color of their skin. Fat lot of good voting in my first election (1968) did me, given that regardless of who won -- Nixon or Humphrey, I was going to end up in Viet-Nam in literally a matter of days after the election. As much as I may have agreed with much of what McGovern said, it was obvious to even The Untrained Eye that Nixon was going to win and win big. Through luck and timing, I had two hour or so talks with Jimmy Carter, one in 1975 and another in 1976, the first one-on-one while waiting for his flight and the second with a member of his staff sitting in while awaiting another flight. Personally, I liked him and voted for him in both 1976 and 1980. I had no use for Reagan, his time in office being something of a shambles; of course, it is unlikely that today Saint Ronald would be viewed as anything but a RINO, Barry Goldwater being another member of the RINO club by today's standards. Bush I was simply Reagan Redux. Clinton heeded the advice of those who helped unleash Wall Street, leading to the disasters that followed, which only goes to show that party labels only go so far. With Bush II winning by one vote on what can only a bad 5-4 call, things somehow managed to go downhill from there; the invasion of Iraq was handled so poorly and bungled so badly that I am still amazed that it was possible to do so -- it took effort. That Bush II was re-elected was not much of a surprise, but that it was closer than it should have been was; don't even get me started on the Swift Boat wackos... Until McCain decided to become a Conservative republican as well as a Republican, I actually liked him -- he said things that no one else seemed to have the guts to say out loud, but picking Palin was an inexplicable self-inflcted wound; not that I could actually vote for McCain, but neither did I bear him any dark thoughts.

Jim Webb brought up something that is rather typical of the always unpredictable Webb:

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Governor Romney and I are about the same age. Like millions of others in our generation, we came to adulthood facing the harsh realities of the Vietnam War. 2.7 million in our age group went to Vietnam, a war which eventually took the lives of 58,000 young Americans and cost another 300,000 wounded. The Marine Corps lost 100,000 killed or wounded in that war. During the year I was in Vietnam, 1969, our country lost twice as many dead as we have lost in Iraq and Afghanistan combined over the past 10 years of war. 1968 was worse. 1967 was about the same. Not a day goes by when I do not think about the young Marines I was privileged to lead.

This was a time of conscription, where every American male was eligible to be drafted. People made choices about how to deal with the draft, and about military service. I have never envied or resented any of the choices that were made as long as they were done within the law. But those among us who stepped forward to face the harsh unknowns and the lifelong changes that can come from combat did so with the belief that their service would be honored, and that our leaders would, in the words of President Abraham Lincoln, care for those who had borne the battle, and for their widows and their children.

Those young Marines that I led have grown older now. They’ve lived lives of courage, both in combat and after their return, where many of them were derided by their own peers for having served. That was a long time ago. They are not bitter. They know what they did. But in receiving veterans’ benefits, they are not takers. They were givers, in the ultimate sense of that word. There is a saying among war veterans: “All gave some, some gave all.” This is not a culture of dependency. It is a part of a long tradition that gave this country its freedom and independence. They paid, some with their lives, some through wounds and disabilities, some through their emotional scars, some through the lost opportunities and delayed entry into civilian careers which had already begun for many of their peers who did not serve.

And not only did they pay. They will not say this, so I will say it for them. They are owed, if nothing else, at least a mention, some word of thanks and respect, when a presidential candidate who is their generational peer makes a speech accepting his party’s nomination to be commander-in-chief. And they are owed much more than that — a guarantee that we will never betray the commitment that we made to them and to their loved ones.

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I am Romney's age (literally days older) and while he got to enjoy France for 30 months, I got to serve in Viet-Nam -- and both happy and amazed that I survived 12 months when I left in mostly one piece. From my understanding he got deferments for both his mission time and then when he returned to school. When he was eligible for the draft, he had the luck to draw a high number, 300 -- mine was exactly one lower, 299, but since I was already in Viet-Nam it was also irrelevant. As Webb states, not really a problem with those like Romney who managed to draw a high number, given that it was within the rules, but at the same time I do wonder about it. Of course, even of those who were drafted or enlisted and then served in Viet-Nam, very few actually experienced combat, and most them on an irregular, occasional basis. Just my luck to wind up in my line of work. Of course, there nothing compared to being shot at/ up/ down/ and sunk to make one realize the true attraction of the academic, intellectual life....

Sorry, just rambling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts920...feature=relmfu

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Originally Posted by Starter

To be blunt, who cares what anyone outside the US thinks about American politics. You don't live here and you don't have to share in the successes and failures of our political system. We're the ones who shoulder the largest consequences of our governments debts and adventures into other people's business - others only periferally so.

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Whatever you might think, the actions of the USA have ramifications for the rest of the world - especially when it comes to your economy and your (insane) foreign policy.

When you succeed it is broadly good for the world, as you have great spending power and huge political and military influence. When you fail it causes havoc: markets are affected worldwide, innocent civilians get caught up in your wars.

Rightly or wrongly, you matter, and that's why so many people outside of your country care about American politics.

in vaguely related news:
BBC News - The Onion spoofs Iran news agency on Obama-Ahmadinejad story

:laugh:

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Originally Posted by Dave B

When you succeed it is broadly good for the world, as you have great spending power and huge political and military influence. When you fail it causes havoc: markets are affected worldwide, innocent civilians get caught up in your wars.

Rightly or wrongly, you matter, and that's why so many people outside of your country care about American politics.

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Dave B speaks with much wisdom here:
Australia in particular has gone to Korea, Malaya, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again and all because big brother America says "jump" and Australia asks "how high?".

According to the The Australian National Audit Office just over A$3.678 billion has been spent by the Australian Government on the development of the F-35 which I should point out at this point we've got NONE, and just over another A$3 billion was spent by the Australian Government on bailing out General Motors.

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Originally Posted by Starter

To be blunt, who cares what anyone outside the US thinks about American politics. You don't live here and you don't have to share in the successes and failures of our political system. We're the ones who shoulder the largest consequences of our governments debts and adventures into other people's business - others only periferally so.

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Bollocks we don't.

Roughly 15% of Australia's National debt is currently carrying the failures of your political system and if yet another pointless war with Iran is declared that'll be even more.

Decisions which the American Government has made has been affecting AUstralian foreign policy directly for the best part of 70 years. To deny this is either wilful ignorance or more likely sheer bloody-mindedness.

And that's only the effects of American policy on one small country (in population if not in area).

Because of the size of the US economy and its buying power, what happens in the USA affects the rest of the world. That's why we non-Amrericans care about what happens in the USA. We are probably able to be more objective about the happenings there and hence we are concerned if the nation's choice of its president is driven by the likes of some of the polemics we have seen on here.

I don't know if any of you have seen this, but if true, should clear up all of our election problems over here, enjoy:

Subject: THE QUEEN HAS SENT AN EMAIL -


To the citizens of the United States of America from Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II:
In light of your immediate failure to financially manage yourselves and therefore not able to govern yourselves, we hereby give notice of the revocation of your independence, effective immediately. (You should look up 'revocation' in the Oxford English Dictionary.)
Her Sovereign Majesty Queen Elizabeth II will resume monarchical duties over all states, commonwealths, and territories (except Kansas, which she does not fancy).
Your new Prime Minister, David Cameron, will appoint a Governor for America without the need for further elections.
Congress and the Senate will be disbanded. A questionnaire may be circulated sometime next year to determine whether any of you noticed.
To aid in the transition to a British Crown dependency, the following rules are introduced with immediate effect:
1. The letter 'U' will be reinstated in words such as 'colour,' 'favour,' 'labour' and 'neighbour.' Likewise, you will learn to spell 'doughnut' without skipping half the letters, and the suffix '-ize' will be replaced by the suffix '-ise.' Generally, you will be expected to raise your vocabulary to acceptable levels. (look up 'vocabulary').
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2. Using the same twenty-seven words interspersed with filler noises such as ''like' and 'you know' is an unacceptable and inefficient form of communication. There is no such thing as U.S. English. We will let Microsoft know on your behalf. The Microsoft spell-checker will be adjusted to take into account the reinstated letter 'u'' and the elimination of '-ize.'
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3. July 4th will no longer be celebrated as a holiday.
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4. You will learn to resolve personal issues without using guns, lawyers, or therapists. The fact that you need so many lawyers and therapists shows that you're not quite ready to be independent. Guns should only be used for shooting grouse. If you can't sort things out without suing someone or speaking to a therapist, then you're not ready to shoot grouse.
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5. Therefore, you will no longer be allowed to own or carry anything more dangerous than a vegetable peeler. Although a permit will be required if you wish to carry a vegetable peeler in public.
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6. All intersections will be replaced with roundabouts, and you will start driving on the left side with immediate effect. At the same time, you will go metric with immediate effect and without the benefit of conversion tables. Both roundabouts and metrication will help you understand the British sense of humour.
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7. The former USA will adopt UK prices on petrol (which you have been calling gasoline) of roughly $10/US gallon. Get used to it.
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8. You will learn to make real chips. Those things you call French fries are not real chips, and those things you insist on calling potato chips are properly called crisps. Real chips are thick cut, fried in animal fat, and dressed not with catsup but with vinegar.
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9. The cold, tasteless stuff you insist on calling beer is not actually beer at all. Henceforth, only proper British Bitter will be referred to as beer, and European brews of known and accepted provenance will be referred to as Lager. New Zealand beer is also acceptable, as New Zealand is pound for pound the greatest sporting nation on earth and it can only be due to the beer. They are also part of the British Commonwealth - see what it did for them. American brands will be referred to as Near-Frozen Gnat's Urine, so that all can be sold without risk of further confusion.
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10. Hollywood will be required occasionally to cast English actors as good guys. Hollywood will also be required to cast English actors to play English characters. Watching Andie Macdowell attempt English dialogue in Four Weddings and a Funeral was an experience akin to having one's ears removed with a cheese grater.
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11. You will cease playing American football. There are only two kinds of proper football; one you call soccer, and rugby (dominated by the New Zealanders). Those of you brave enough will, in time, be allowed to play rugby (which has some similarities to American football, but does not involve stopping for a rest every twenty seconds or wearing full kevlar body armour like a bunch of nancies).
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12. Further, you will stop playing baseball. It is not reasonable to host an event called the World Series for a game which is not played outside of America. Since only 2.1% of you are aware there is a world beyond your borders, your error is understandable. You will learn cricket, and we will let you face the Australians (World dominators) first to take the sting out of their deliveries.
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13. You must tell us who killed JFK. It's been driving us mad.
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14. An internal revenue agent (i.e. tax collector) from Her Majesty's Government will be with you shortly to ensure the acquisition of all monies due (backdated to 1776).
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15. Daily Tea Time begins promptly at 4 p.m. with proper cups, with saucers, and never mugs, with high quality biscuits (cookies) and cakes; plus strawberries (with cream) when in season.



God Save the Queen!

great Starter but what about the Ryder cup - do we play with ourselves now - well I guess we did on Sunday

First seen in 2000 after the election delays of GW Bush.

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Originally Posted by Mark

First seen in 2000 after the election delays of GW Bush.

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I figured it might have been around for a while. First time I had seen it. Still pretty funny though.

Here is an article that caught my attention that shows that there are real consequences to actions taken by those whose seek to downsize government:

Back to $chool | History News Network

This is a consequence of the passage of Proposition 13 back in 1978 and several other proposals that followed which greatly handicapped the state and local governments to fund and operate many services for the citizens of California ("... it handcuffed state lawmakers by requiring a two-thirds supermajority any time they wanted to increase taxes, and made a two-thirds vote among citizens necessary to raise local taxes.). I thought Proposition 13 was a huge mistake at the time and nothing since then has changed that opinion.

Words of Joe Biden.... "The middle class has been buried for the last 4 years." Who is he campaigning for ? Does he realize who has been in the office the last 4 years ? ...lol What an idiot. He is as clueless as Obama. Everyday I find it harder to believe anyone would vote for these two.....lol :D

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

Here is an article that caught my attention that shows that there are real consequences to actions taken by those whose seek to downsize government:

Back to $chool | History News Network

This is a consequence of the passage of Proposition 13 back in 1978 and several other proposals that followed which greatly handicapped the state and local governments to fund and operate many services for the citizens of California ("... it handcuffed state lawmakers by requiring a two-thirds supermajority any time they wanted to increase taxes, and made a two-thirds vote among citizens necessary to raise local taxes.). I thought Proposition 13 was a huge mistake at the time and nothing since then has changed that opinion.

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Proposition 13 was not a mistake. I live in Maryland and we had our own version of it in some counties. It was sorely needed.

Spending big dollars on education does not now, and never has, assured a quality education. Those dollars were more likely to go to administative expansion and salaries and union wages than to direct results in classrooms. That's clearly proven when you compare the dollars spent per student against the results and then compare that to models in other location both in the US and elsewhere. It has NEVER been how much you spend, but HOW you spend it. The current US education system is nothing more than a huge government jobs program with little accountability for results.

I recently worked for an on line school which produced better education for a much lower cost - proven by test scores of our students. And our costs included providing computers and printers to our students. We also used the standard curriculum, the same as the public schools in each state we served.

Good god. You lived in California during the run up to the vote on Prop 13?
If not why the~++%^ do you comment? What compels you to speak about things you in NEAR CERTAINTY you actually know ZERO, ZIP, NIENTE, NADA, NULL, NOTHING about except maybe what you may have glaced at maybe..

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Originally Posted by Starter

Proposition 13 was not a mistake.

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To readers who give a gawddamn about reality, I lived in Northern California for a year in the mid 70s, and what whassisname failed to think of was...damn its just too rediculous I'll get banned.
The administrators and deadwood in the offices in for example the Alameda County Library System--the day After the vote in utter panic--in the same level as Starters drivel, called all library staff and "laid them off overnight because of Prop 13".

Immediately books filled the return slots and began overflowing and getting stacked outside the doors of libraries..
Of course since there WAS NO REASON to lay off 100% of the staff---there was nobody to haul the books inside--books were lost, stolen , damaged..

It was a MISTAKE because the moron Admin Bureaucrats, being bureaucrats and morons---is that redundant?----didn't THINK that the year's budget ran for another 8 months....

The Propsition was a mistake---a typical one of idiots voting for abstract ideas which only theoretically MIGHT affect them, and the passage was handled in the stupidest way imaginable ...

Still, I wonder what compels people to write stuff they know not grain of sand about?

There must be a name for the syndrome... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Words of Joe Biden.... "The middle class has been buried for the last 4 years." Who is he campaigning for ? Does he realize who has been in the office the last 4 years ? ...lol What an idiot. He is as clueless as Obama. Everyday I find it harder to believe anyone would vote for these two.....lol :D

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Einstein, what were they buried under? Can you remember back to 07 and 08?
You call him an idiot and call him clueless after what you have posted here?
To know they were idiots and clueless would mean you would not be..
And you've shown that is not the case..

Here's a simple one for you:

What do you say about:
the growing Republican election fraud scandal that is tearing across the nation this very moment. Republicans hiring known election fraud coordinators in an attempt to steal the election in how many states now? Here in Colorado. In Florida.

Where else?

Is Romney Ryan involved, and if so, how very deeply?

I hope Willard has some good answers tonight...

Proposition 13 was a huge mistake. Period.

The basic, underlying problem with the US education system in general is that it is based and run on a pseudo-business model and not an educational model.

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me. That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking. What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?

As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.

There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.

One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.

Obama sure knows how to speak out of both sides of his mouth.. Again, shows his lack of leadership and that he has done nothing to improve this country, only worsen it. I ask why ??

Here are his exact words..

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. ...Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here'. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

This guy kept saying change but what did he do.....nothing! He sure knows how to lie I will give him that. Again I just dont understand how anyone can vote for him. Do you really think he will do things different ? He wont, it will get worse if he was to be re-elected.

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Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Obama sure knows how to speak out of both sides of his mouth.. Again, shows his lack of leadership and that he has done nothing to improve this country, only worsen it. I ask why ??

Here are his exact words..

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a Sign that the US Government cannot pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. ...Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that 'the buck stops here'. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and Grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better."

SENATOR BARACK HUSSEIN OBAMA, MARCH 2006

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In case you didn't notice, that statement was made regarding a US Government being run by the GOP whose follies and inept leadership led us into the mess that will take years to clean up. The lack of leadership in question was clearly that of Bush II. As for why, that the GOP has done everything possible to prevent the Obama administration from dealing with the issues at hand for its own selfish purposes rather than thinking of the country might be a good place to start....

As for things getting worse, elect Romney and they certainly will get worse: the inmates will then be running the asylum and wreck the place. If Bush II was bad, Romney/Ryan will make that disaster pale by comparison.

Don, you cant deny he spoke these words... and what does he do.... the same exact thing, only worse! He spent more money than any other president. Again, he is a joke...

I wouldn't say Australia was in Malaysia at the behest of the US as much as the UK. For the rest I'd say spot on.

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

Proposition 13 was a huge mistake. Period.

The basic, underlying problem with the US education system in general is that it is based and run on a pseudo-business model and not an educational model.

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me. That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking. What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?

As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.

There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.

One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.

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Excellent post, I especially like the reference to the Two Sigma Problem...too bad its wasted on "the usual suspects" (imagine what it would be like if the actually read the things we refer to rather than instantly responding with contrary non sequitors "Obamas spent more than any other President"---in a way it's a demonstration of the problems teacher have in school, iddinit? Regardless of anything anybody writes or refers to, it is parried and a unrelated thing is blurted out....)

Thanks again.
I have more reading to do.
For anybody interested in a brief overview there's this:
Bloom's 2 Sigma Problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Don, you cant deny he spoke these words... and what does he do.... the same exact thing, only worse! He spent more money than any other president. Again, he is a joke...

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And your point? This is simply more of the usual mindless partisan babble to ignore rather a reply. Keep trying and better luck next time.

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

The current Charter School/ School Reform / Education-for-Profit / School Voucher movement(s) is not only misguided, but doing far more harm than any good that could possibly ever result from their hocus pocus nonsense (nice to say bull$hit). That there are factors beyond even the best teachers seems irrelevant to these lunkheads. Like or not, there are many factors/variables outside the school and classroom that affect the educational process, most of which are beyond the control of the classroom teacher. Holding a classroom "accountable" for what she/he cannot control is crazy; that so many teachers do manage to encourage, inspire, believe in, and support their students is a continuing source of both pride and amazement to me.

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Charter schools, etc. are not misguided. They are valid alternative models intended to correct some of the ills of the educational system. Many are very successful at what they do. That is not to say that there are not some which are ill thought out; ineffective; or scams.

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That the current policies tethered to the tyranny of standardized testing is actually a detriment to educational achievement for those needing it most is both an irony and a consequence of seriously flawed thinking.

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How then would you evaluate the success of the process? You can't wait until students have graduated and worked for a while to see if they learned anything.

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What incentive is there to teach in a school where despite your best efforts success is minimal at best, while someone who should not even be allowed near a classroom gets credit for having students who chose the right parents?

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Success is relative. The fallacy is that all kids are capabile of mastering everything. People are NOT created equal. Some are smarter, in different ways; some have manual skills, some can run faster; some have better memory and some every possible combination of these traits.

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As the former lead at HQDA for Distance Learning (I was part of the team that developed and then implemented the Army Distance Learing Plan (ADLP) that created the Army Digital Library (ADL)), I am quite aware of the pluses and minuses of on-line/distributed learning. However, DL only goes so far in and of itself. Take a look at the Two Sigma Problem that Bloom observed; we also observed the Two Sigma with the combination of a live instructor with DL or CA (computer-assisted) courseware.

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Sorry, not familiar with Two Sigma and don't have time to research right now.

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There is a tendency to blame the teachers for everything under the sun in education. The glut of administrative personnel is a result of the pseudo-business model under which education operates. This results in the self-licking ice cream cone where more administrators means that they need to supervise/administer more, therefore, teachers find themselves burdened with more and more time spent dealing with the bureaucracy, time that would ordinarily be devoted to tasks related to the actual teaching of students.

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My point exactly. Education money spent in the very wrong places.

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One would ask just what sort of students where involved in your online courses: that is, for starters, where did they fall regarding the poverty line or educational level in the household, and so on. This would make the results better understood.

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K-12. The model was as a charter school, open to all in the states served. No requirement to participate other than a desire to sign up. Students from all backgrounds participated. The company is Connections Education (formerly Connections Academy - which is now a division of CE) and has now expanded to other arenas of education as well. You can check it out on line if you wish and have a few minutes. I left about a year ago - retired.

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Originally Posted by Don Capps

And your point? This is simply more of the usual mindless partisan babble to ignore rather a reply. Keep trying and better luck next time.

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Nope, nothing to try. It's the truth. Sorry but you cant hide from the facts. It's the truth. He doing exactly what he spoke against for years but only doing it even worse.

And how will the defenders of the 1% change life for the middle and working classes for the better, DanicaFan? By cutting their healthcare? Being opposed to teaching critical thinking skills in school? By fighting medical marijuana 'tooth and nail', despite over 70% of Americans being in favour or medical marijuana, and 50% wanting it legalised for all uses? (I'm with Johnson and Stein on the war on drugs, Obama's current war on drugs policies are amongst the biggest ways in which he has disappointed me.) How about gay rights, or do gay marriages lead to COMMUNISM, despite gay marriages never being allowed in Eastern Europe/USSR before 1989, North Korea, China etc etc. Maybe less regulation of the banksters, and less taxes on their Swiss/Cayman Island headed wages?

Perhaps the USA should continue rimming Israel, never ever criticising its treatment of the Palestinians? (Again, something Obama has disappointed me with, however still not as bad as Romney, fyi I support Israel's right to exist, as well as Palestine's, so don't try to smear me as some kind of anti-semitic Hamas sympathiser.) Perhaps people who have grown up and spent most of their lives in the USA should be deported to Mexico despite them having no memory of the place and feeling American, attending school/being in a job etc etc? Perhaps more private prisons should be built to house more small time offenders and destroy their prospects for life?

Elements of the right wing create mountains out of molehills, or sometimes even flat land.

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Originally Posted by DanicaFan

Nope, nothing to try. It's the truth. Sorry but you cant hide from the facts. It's the truth. He doing exactly what he spoke against for years but only doing it even worse.

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As usual, not good enough, but keep trying. With any luck, you will eventually get the idea as to how to better express your thoughts -- at which time I will be happy to acknowledge such a feat. You can do it, I know that you are fully capable of it.

Speaking of hiding from the facts, why is Romney (and the GOP for that matter) having so many problems winning people over to his side? Maybe all the flip-flopping and double-talk, being for any number of things before he was against them could be a factor? The ability to change one's mind when presented with new facts and/or interpretations is an admirable quality, but to do so purely for political reasons is to lack the courage of one's convictions. Before Romney slid over to the Right to embrace no end of ideas that fall short of making sense he was actually a much better candidate than what we are now presented with at the moment. Had Romney the courage of his -- moderate -- convictions and not become a prisoner of the current GOP ideology, I doubt that this election would even be close. Not that I could ever vote for him, of course, but at least you could anticipate him not being a menace to society which most of what he (actually, the GOP) espouses and says he will do were he to win would make him.

It was interesting to note how comfortable and at ease Romney was with his fellow Plutocrats when he made his "47%" speech as compared to how awkward he is around hoi polloi. Just an observation that others have pointed out to me.

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Originally Posted by Starter

How then would you evaluate the success of the process? You can't wait until students have graduated and worked for a while to see if they learned anything.

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I believe education league tables and the like to have been an utterly pernicious development.

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Originally Posted by BDunnell

I believe education league tables and the like to have been an utterly pernicious development.

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The private, for profit and "on line" Kidergarten to 12th Grade (known on these shores as K-12) is just one more thing to socialise the cost, and privatise the profits..
The usual scam is to "embed' these corporations "advisers" who are essentially lobbyists, to convince legislatures and school districs they need to pour taxpayer dollars into their hands.

2 seconds hunt and peck on the trusty ol' keyboard finds the company mentioned is a seemingly scammy deal:
For-Profit Online Charter Scandal « Diane Ravitch's blog

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Maine’s State Commissioner of Education Stephen Bowen went to San Francisco to hear Jeb Bush tout the glories of for-profit online charter schools. Jeb Bush’s foundation paid for the trip. The commissioner met with Jeb’s chief education aide, Patricia Levesque, whose company lobbies for the online corporations. She promised help.

This is what the Maine Sunday Telegram found after getting access to public records of the correspondence:
Bowen was preparing an aggressive reform drive on initiatives intended to dramatically expand and deregulate online education in Maine, but he felt overwhelmed.
“I have no ‘political’ staff who I can work with to move this stuff through the process,” he emailed her from his office.
Levesque replied not to worry; her staff in Florida would be happy to suggest policies, write laws and gubernatorial decrees, and develop strategies to ensure they were implemented.
“When you suggested there might be a way for us to get some policy help, it was all I could do not to jump for joy,” Bowen wrote Levesque from his office.
“Let us help,” she responded.
So was a partnership formed between Maine’s top education official and a foundation entangled with the very companies that stand to make millions of dollars from the policies it advocates.
In the months that followed, according to more than 1,000 pages of emails obtained by a public records request, the commissioner would rely on the foundation to provide him with key portions of his education agenda. These included draft laws, the content of the administration’s digital education strategy and the text ofGov. Paul LePage’s Feb. 1 executive order on digital education.
A Maine Sunday Telegram investigation found large portions of Maine’s digital education agenda are being guided behind the scenes by out-of-state companies that stand to capitalize on the changes, especially the nation’s two largest online education providers.

K12 Inc. of Herndon, Va., and Connections Education, the Baltimore-based subsidiary of education publishing giant Pearson, are both seeking to expand online offerings and to open full-time virtual charter schools in Maine, with taxpayers paying the tuition for the students who use the services.

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Original report:
Special Report: The profit motive behind virtual schools in Maine | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram
September 13
Special Report: The profit motive behind virtual schools in Maine

Documents expose the flow of money and influence from corporations that stand to profit from state leaders' efforts to expand and deregulate digital education.

By Colin Woodard cwoodard@pressherald.com
Staff Writer

This story originally was published on Sept. 2, 2012.
KEY FINDINGS

PULLING THE STRINGS: Maine's digital education agenda is being guided behind the scenes by out-of-state companies that stand to profit on the changes.
FLORIDA CONNECTION: The LePage administration has relied heavily on former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush's Foundation for Excellence in Education, a conservative think tank, in writing policies to create taxpayer-funded virtual schools in Maine.
FOLLOW THE MONEY: This foundation and its top officials receive funding from online education companies, which will profit if the initiatives go forward.
REMOTE CONTROL: The foundation wrote much of the language in Gov. Paul LePage's Feb. 1 executive order on digital learning, which embraces foundation policies.
BACKSTAGE MEETINGS: The secretive American Legislative Exchange Council -- a corporate-backed political group for state legislators -- developed digital learning legislation that was introduced by Maine lawmakers. Stephen Bowen (pictured) was a private-sector member until he was appointed education commissioner in Maine.
FAILING GRADES: Virtual schools have no classrooms, little or no in-person teaching and a poor track record compared to public schools. (Sidebar, A5)
CRITICS REACT: National education leaders say democratic governance is being superseded by corporate control.
• BACKGROUND DOCUMENTS
Comparison of Gov. LePage's executive order on digital learning and the
draft order provided by the Foundation for Excellence in Education.
Digital Learning Now! agenda (adopted by LePage administration)
American Legislative Exchange documents leaked to Common Cause showing Stephen Bowen's membership and attendance at ALEC meetings.
Emails between Stephen Bowen and Patricia Levesque, executive director of Foundation for Excellence in Education.
Patricia Levesque's compensation (from Foundation for Excellence in Education's 2010 IRS filing)
• ADDITIONAL READING
New York Times Dec 2011 investigation of K12 Inc.

And:
Studies: Existing full-time virtual schools earn poor grades | The Portland Press Herald / Maine Sunday Telegram

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A study released in July by researchers at Western Michigan University found that only 27.7 percent of the full-time virtual schools run by the nation's largest online education company, K12 Inc., met federally mandated Adequate Yearly Progress goals, compared to 52 percent of public schools.

Students at its schools scored lower in both reading and math and had a graduation rate of only 49 percent, compared to a 79 percent average among comparable students at public schools in the 24 states where the virtual schools are located.

"Across a wide variety of school measures they do very poorly, even though their demographics looked to us like suburban schools," says the study's lead author, Gary Miron, who is also a fellow at the National Education Policy Center. "We didn't see high poverty or a lot of ESL (English as a Second Language) students."



The virtual schools are paid for by taxpayers, but the students learn largely from home, with lessons delivered online from teachers tens, hundreds or even thousands of miles away. There is no schoolhouse, playground, gymnasium or lunch hall, although under some models students will occasionally meet for face-time sessions with each other and an educator.

In lower grades – virtual schools start at kindergarten – the programs typically rely on parents who act as “learning coaches,” following instructions that appear on their child’s computer. Older students do most of the work online themselves.
Teachers monitor and grade students remotely. They answer questions online or by telephone. Major national online teaching companies such as K12 Inc. have teacher-student ratios as high as 60 to 1.

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Like American "health care" American education system is very expensive and we see routinely the results are extremely modest... And where ever there's a lot of money being shovelled willy-nilly, there's going to be people trying to suck in as much as they can..
Taxpayer pays, private Media Corporation profits.

And as always, the usual suspects blame those at the lowest rung of the ladder.... How predicable. ..how sad.

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Originally Posted by Starter

K-12. The model was as a charter school, open to all in the states served. No requirement to participate other than a desire to sign up. Students from all backgrounds participated. The company is Connections Education (formerly Connections Academy - which is now a division of CE) and has now expanded to other arenas of education as well. You can check it out on line if you wish and have a few minutes. I left about a year ago - retired.

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Sorry, I had forgotten, in this earlier post, to mention the costs of the program. The funding is determined between the Board of Education and the Company. It is almost always the cost per student of the educational unit (usually state, county or school district) which is then paid to the company per student enrolled in the charter program. That's the total compensation. The company actually has certified teachers located in the states served who are assigned to the students. Even with the cost of providing technology (computers) to enrolled students, the company can make a tidy profit because they don't have to maintain the (often crumbling) brick and mortar schools, the administrative overhead, and the company's teachers are non union.

The Presidential Debate kicks off in about 20 minutes time. I honestly expect to hear nothing of any import from either side.

I do expect more "spin" than a top in a blender in a washing machine on a carousel though.

meh. Willard din't crash and burn, but he sure made no effort to explain a single detail of his big 5 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan. "Trust me", was him main message, "I'm going to create 27 million new jobs."

Limp from willard, Obama was fine just holding the position.
I don't think he expected to crush the weaselly Willard..
He needs to hammer on the flip flop flip flop that we've seen so hilariously from Willard

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Originally Posted by janvanvurpa

meh. Willard din't crash and burn, but he sure made no effort to explain a single detail of his big 5 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan.

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Not entirely true. There was one:
“I’m sorry, Jim, I’m gonna stop the subsidy to PBS… I like PBS. I love Big Bird. I actually like you, too.”
- Mitt Romney, 3rd Oct 2012


If you work out the maths on this, cutting the subsidy to PBS amounts to 0.012% of the Federal Budget. To put that in perspective, it would be the same as me cutting 22c from my weekly pay packet, which isn't even enough to buy a Chuppa Chupp.